1 00:00:03,050 --> 00:00:01,819 triangle you know there's explanation 2 00:00:04,370 --> 00:00:03,060 for everything that occurred in the 3 00:00:06,829 --> 00:00:04,380 Rendlesham forest incident 4 00:00:09,709 --> 00:00:06,839 it doesn't involve aliens at all it was 5 00:00:13,070 --> 00:00:09,719 completely silent it comes right over 6 00:00:14,870 --> 00:00:13,080 our head it's so classic flying-saucer 7 00:00:16,490 --> 00:00:14,880 really standing in the clearing he 8 00:00:18,140 --> 00:00:16,500 turned over to my father and held his 9 00:00:24,650 --> 00:00:18,150 hand and he looked in his eyes and said 10 00:00:26,089 --> 00:00:24,660 we're not alone welcome to podcast UFO 11 00:00:28,519 --> 00:00:26,099 for our live show 12 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:28,529 we're live every Wednesday at 8 p.m. 13 00:00:34,430 --> 00:00:30,810 Eastern Standard Time please remember to 14 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:34,440 visit the website podcast UFO comm for 15 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:37,770 past episodes blogs and forums during 16 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:39,660 the show feel free to participate live 17 00:00:44,510 --> 00:00:42,210 in our chat room and don't forget to 18 00:00:48,049 --> 00:00:44,520 Like us on our very active Facebook page 19 00:00:50,750 --> 00:00:48,059 hello and welcome to the show I'm Martin 20 00:00:53,660 --> 00:00:50,760 will assure hosts and if you're watching 21 00:00:56,450 --> 00:00:53,670 live on youtube or on YouTube at all you 22 00:00:58,970 --> 00:00:56,460 can see that I'm in studio with a guest 23 00:01:01,549 --> 00:00:58,980 host Donny Gosselin how you doing Donny 24 00:01:03,290 --> 00:01:01,559 doing fine thanks Martin now Donny has 25 00:01:06,140 --> 00:01:03,300 been on a number times he's a retired 26 00:01:09,890 --> 00:01:06,150 police officer in Boston and you know 27 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:09,900 what Alejandro Rojas that is on with the 28 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:12,210 UFO updates I have not been able to 29 00:01:17,330 --> 00:01:14,010 raise him today and I hope he's feeling 30 00:01:20,749 --> 00:01:17,340 ok so I'm not sure I just left him a 31 00:01:23,210 --> 00:01:20,759 message to call into the show with UFO 32 00:01:25,550 --> 00:01:23,220 news so hopefully he will be calling in 33 00:01:27,710 --> 00:01:25,560 I don't know about that 34 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:27,720 so last week if you missed last week's 35 00:01:33,740 --> 00:01:30,210 show I announced that I'm not gonna be 36 00:01:36,380 --> 00:01:33,750 doing the live YouTube shows shows are 37 00:01:38,539 --> 00:01:36,390 still going to be on YouTube but they 38 00:01:39,499 --> 00:01:38,549 are not going to be live on YouTube as 39 00:01:41,030 --> 00:01:39,509 far as I know 40 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:41,040 then that's coming up in two weeks on 41 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:43,770 December 13th so it could be a live show 42 00:01:48,830 --> 00:01:46,530 we're going to be over at K G RA radio 43 00:01:50,060 --> 00:01:48,840 that's an internet radio station it's 44 00:01:52,310 --> 00:01:50,070 supposed to be a really good fit for 45 00:01:54,590 --> 00:01:52,320 this show with a built-in audience it 46 00:01:58,160 --> 00:01:54,600 should do really well I hope there's 47 00:02:00,980 --> 00:01:58,170 chat rooms over there and so I hope that 48 00:02:03,289 --> 00:02:00,990 the people listening live and YouTube 49 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:03,299 will kind of wander over there I'll have 50 00:02:08,510 --> 00:02:06,570 all that information on podcast UFO calm 51 00:02:09,889 --> 00:02:08,520 so you just go to the website and you'll 52 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:09,899 see all the information there that 53 00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:12,450 starts again on the 13th the regular 54 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:13,650 timeslot 55 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:15,810 eight to 10 p.m. Eastern Standard Time 56 00:02:20,270 --> 00:02:18,810 if you can't listen to the show live and 57 00:02:22,819 --> 00:02:20,280 you can't support the show and by the 58 00:02:25,819 --> 00:02:22,829 way thank you supporters if you can't 59 00:02:27,679 --> 00:02:25,829 support the show then and you want to 60 00:02:31,039 --> 00:02:27,689 listen to the full show of course you 61 00:02:34,369 --> 00:02:31,049 can come to podcast UFO calm 8 to 10 62 00:02:37,099 --> 00:02:34,379 p.m. Eastern Standard Time or kgr radio 63 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:37,109 that website that link will be right on 64 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:39,810 my website you can also listen to it on 65 00:02:44,470 --> 00:02:41,730 the Dark Matter digital network on 66 00:02:48,170 --> 00:02:44,480 Thursday evenings from 10:00 to midnight 67 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:48,180 so that's every Thursday on that that's 68 00:02:54,259 --> 00:02:51,170 about it I'm still waiting for Alejandro 69 00:02:58,250 --> 00:02:54,269 fortunately I don't think he's going to 70 00:02:59,449 --> 00:02:58,260 be calling in so and I again I hope he's 71 00:03:04,940 --> 00:02:59,459 okay 72 00:03:06,589 --> 00:03:04,950 so we were talking before the show will 73 00:03:09,259 --> 00:03:06,599 be bringing - I forgot to talk about our 74 00:03:12,979 --> 00:03:09,269 guests did not can you believe that our 75 00:03:16,429 --> 00:03:12,989 guest our guest tonight is Jim McDonald 76 00:03:19,990 --> 00:03:16,439 and he is not to be confused with the 77 00:03:23,030 --> 00:03:20,000 James McDonald in Arizona the UFO 78 00:03:26,780 --> 00:03:23,040 researcher that had quite the fame years 79 00:03:29,449 --> 00:03:26,790 ago so Jim McDonald has been looking at 80 00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:29,459 the Betty and Barney case for quite a 81 00:03:33,439 --> 00:03:31,650 while Barney Betty and Barney Hill that 82 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:33,449 is we're gonna be talking about that he 83 00:03:38,839 --> 00:03:36,090 has a different view on that now I do 84 00:03:42,140 --> 00:03:38,849 want to say a couple things about that I 85 00:03:45,409 --> 00:03:42,150 am going to remain neutral on that let 86 00:03:48,619 --> 00:03:45,419 him say what he has to say and ask him 87 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:48,629 questions along typically we take calls 88 00:03:54,860 --> 00:03:51,930 in the second hour or about 45 minutes 89 00:03:57,140 --> 00:03:54,870 into the show because I don't have the 90 00:04:00,289 --> 00:03:57,150 gleeful updates tonight we're going to 91 00:04:01,849 --> 00:04:00,299 take calls earlier so if you want to 92 00:04:04,879 --> 00:04:01,859 write this down if you have a question 93 00:04:08,809 --> 00:04:04,889 for our guest as he goes along that 94 00:04:11,180 --> 00:04:08,819 number is six oh three nine six seven 95 00:04:13,909 --> 00:04:11,190 four OH three oh and if you're calling 96 00:04:17,149 --> 00:04:13,919 from another country just add a 1 to 97 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:17,159 that six oh three nine six seven four OH 98 00:04:21,949 --> 00:04:19,530 three oh and also if you want to use 99 00:04:25,430 --> 00:04:21,959 Skype that's fine as well and the Skype 100 00:04:26,030 --> 00:04:25,440 username is marty willis i don't like to 101 00:04:28,940 --> 00:04:26,040 be called 102 00:04:34,850 --> 00:04:28,950 but anyway that was available Marty will 103 00:04:36,950 --> 00:04:34,860 Smar T y WI ll is so I think that's it 104 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:36,960 and just to remember we have two more 105 00:04:42,350 --> 00:04:39,450 shows on YouTube I will be posting on 106 00:04:44,330 --> 00:04:42,360 YouTube and I think I can only do video 107 00:04:45,830 --> 00:04:44,340 on my end I don't think I can do a video 108 00:04:49,190 --> 00:04:45,840 on the guests end so it might be a 109 00:04:51,500 --> 00:04:49,200 little bit boring but anyway you can 110 00:04:54,830 --> 00:04:51,510 check that out see if we can progress 111 00:04:58,220 --> 00:04:54,840 and figure all that stuff out so our 112 00:05:03,110 --> 00:04:58,230 guest Jim McDonald again he has his own 113 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:03,120 thoughts on what happened back in 1961 114 00:05:08,750 --> 00:05:06,330 he's a former naval officer and he is 115 00:05:12,530 --> 00:05:08,760 also known as a science fiction author 116 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:12,540 the mage world's series for tour books 117 00:05:19,370 --> 00:05:16,530 and he co-wrote them with his wife 118 00:05:22,730 --> 00:05:19,380 Deborah Doyle he's also a professional 119 00:05:24,830 --> 00:05:22,740 magician and you know it's funny I know 120 00:05:26,270 --> 00:05:24,840 a number of magicians that are kind of 121 00:05:29,420 --> 00:05:26,280 skeptics because they think that 122 00:05:30,890 --> 00:05:29,430 everything can be faked or is an 123 00:05:33,620 --> 00:05:30,900 illusion so we can talk a little bit 124 00:05:37,610 --> 00:05:33,630 about that and he's also been an EMT for 125 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:37,620 the last 20 years so Jim welcome to the 126 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:43,050 show you have well yeah hello Marc yeah 127 00:05:49,700 --> 00:05:46,890 hi how are you okay I'm not I'm not 128 00:05:54,650 --> 00:05:49,710 getting your audio hello hello there you 129 00:05:57,290 --> 00:05:54,660 are okay yeah okay well here I am 130 00:05:59,390 --> 00:05:57,300 here you are let us hear a little bit 131 00:06:01,640 --> 00:05:59,400 about yourself and then what got you 132 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:01,650 interested in the the Betty and Barney 133 00:06:09,410 --> 00:06:05,970 Hill incident and well in the beginning 134 00:06:13,250 --> 00:06:09,420 well I read about it when it was first 135 00:06:16,910 --> 00:06:13,260 being published I am that old and I 136 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:16,920 remember yeah I remember the 60s which 137 00:06:25,250 --> 00:06:18,450 means I wasn't really there 138 00:06:28,280 --> 00:06:25,260 people tell me so anyway eventually I 139 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:28,290 moved to upper New Hampshire where I 140 00:06:37,870 --> 00:06:35,010 live in Colebrook and one day back in 141 00:06:39,950 --> 00:06:37,880 the mid 90s I was standing in my kitchen 142 00:06:43,340 --> 00:06:39,960 reading the Union 143 00:06:46,670 --> 00:06:43,350 leader like you do and there was a brief 144 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:46,680 story maybe two column inches about a 145 00:06:52,820 --> 00:06:49,050 fellow who had just seen a unidentified 146 00:06:55,719 --> 00:06:52,830 flying object in Franconia Notch just 147 00:06:58,189 --> 00:06:55,729 the previous week and I said to myself 148 00:07:02,300 --> 00:06:58,199 Franconia Notch I remember something 149 00:07:04,700 --> 00:07:02,310 about that and so I looked up of the 150 00:07:09,409 --> 00:07:04,710 Betty and Barney Hill story the I got a 151 00:07:13,790 --> 00:07:09,419 copy of John Fuller's book and I said to 152 00:07:16,310 --> 00:07:13,800 myself wait a minute why are two 153 00:07:18,230 --> 00:07:16,320 different people seen the same thing at 154 00:07:20,870 --> 00:07:18,240 the same place what's up with that 155 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:20,880 and I recalled also I've driven up and 156 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:23,130 down Route three many many many times 157 00:07:28,700 --> 00:07:26,370 all hours of the day and night and all 158 00:07:32,060 --> 00:07:28,710 kinds of weather conditions I said there 159 00:07:34,430 --> 00:07:32,070 is a light that you see and I followed 160 00:07:38,210 --> 00:07:34,440 the the story of Betty and Barney in 161 00:07:40,700 --> 00:07:38,220 John Fuller's book and the light on the 162 00:07:42,710 --> 00:07:40,710 top of Cannon Mountain matches exactly 163 00:07:45,350 --> 00:07:42,720 what they respond what they what they 164 00:07:48,740 --> 00:07:45,360 reported it matches exactly the 165 00:07:50,990 --> 00:07:48,750 movements of their UFO and which side of 166 00:07:55,700 --> 00:07:51,000 the car it passes down and all the rest 167 00:07:57,770 --> 00:07:55,710 I said you know maybe just maybe this 168 00:07:59,060 --> 00:07:57,780 guy in the mid-90s and Betty and Barney 169 00:08:01,370 --> 00:07:59,070 back in 61 170 00:08:04,490 --> 00:08:01,380 they were just seeing a light at night 171 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:04,500 and misidentified it and that's my thing 172 00:08:11,270 --> 00:08:06,570 and now I don't know what to do with the 173 00:08:14,450 --> 00:08:11,280 other half hour and 50 minutes five 174 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:14,460 minutes yeah yeah well I'm sure it goes 175 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:18,690 a bit deeper than that you know because 176 00:08:27,260 --> 00:08:24,570 if that was all you had then you have a 177 00:08:28,820 --> 00:08:27,270 lot of different theories on this and 178 00:08:30,230 --> 00:08:28,830 about about the light I understand what 179 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:30,240 you're saying about the light because I 180 00:08:34,250 --> 00:08:32,370 used to live in Colorado and there was a 181 00:08:36,079 --> 00:08:34,260 lot of lights in the mountains there and 182 00:08:38,420 --> 00:08:36,089 it did seem like as you were going along 183 00:08:40,010 --> 00:08:38,430 like the light kept going on but it was 184 00:08:42,469 --> 00:08:40,020 just that it was out of a long distance 185 00:08:44,990 --> 00:08:42,479 away so I understand a little bit about 186 00:08:46,910 --> 00:08:45,000 that but why are you convinced that 187 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:46,920 something else happened instead of their 188 00:08:51,290 --> 00:08:48,690 entire story let's go through the whole 189 00:08:53,460 --> 00:08:51,300 thing first of all let's let's talk a 190 00:08:56,010 --> 00:08:53,470 little bit about what happened 191 00:08:57,140 --> 00:08:56,020 what their recount was of what happened 192 00:09:00,540 --> 00:08:57,150 that night 193 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:00,550 okay the first important thing to notice 194 00:09:08,820 --> 00:09:03,730 is they started that day off in Niagara 195 00:09:12,690 --> 00:09:08,830 Falls and they drove all day then they 196 00:09:14,910 --> 00:09:12,700 drove all night and according to fuller 197 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:14,920 the reason is because they had no money 198 00:09:20,670 --> 00:09:17,650 for a motel if they stopped in a motel 199 00:09:26,670 --> 00:09:20,680 they would have never been abducted by 200 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:26,680 aliens I'm pretty sure because I'm sure 201 00:09:32,940 --> 00:09:29,770 you know about drowsy driving right it's 202 00:09:35,310 --> 00:09:32,950 the thing and some of the symptoms of 203 00:09:37,770 --> 00:09:35,320 drowsy driving and of sleep deprivation 204 00:09:39,990 --> 00:09:37,780 and remember by the time Betty and 205 00:09:43,830 --> 00:09:40,000 Barney got home they've been driving for 206 00:09:48,210 --> 00:09:43,840 about 21 straight hours one of the signs 207 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:48,220 is a feeling of lost time one of the 208 00:09:54,350 --> 00:09:52,090 sign symptoms is that you can't remember 209 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:54,360 the last several miles you drove and 210 00:09:59,190 --> 00:09:56,890 another one of the symptoms of sleep 211 00:10:00,690 --> 00:09:59,200 deprivation is paranoia the feeling that 212 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:00,700 you're being watched or being followed 213 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:03,610 and Betty and Barney had all of those 214 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:10,210 things so combined and nearly I have no 215 00:10:13,550 --> 00:10:12,130 idea how long truckers are allowed to 216 00:10:15,780 --> 00:10:13,560 drive straight through 217 00:10:18,210 --> 00:10:15,790 perhaps your other guests the police 218 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:18,220 officer knows that it's nowhere near 21 219 00:10:25,260 --> 00:10:23,290 hours it's very well supervised at least 220 00:10:27,750 --> 00:10:25,270 at this point night history logged in 221 00:10:29,430 --> 00:10:27,760 books you know yep that's the login 222 00:10:31,170 --> 00:10:29,440 where they where they sleep how long 223 00:10:34,230 --> 00:10:31,180 they're down how long they're driving 224 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:34,240 and I'm pretty sure that 20 21 hours is 225 00:10:41,460 --> 00:10:36,330 not inside that ballpark 226 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:41,470 so we've so we we've got the missing 227 00:10:45,930 --> 00:10:43,090 time which is one of the big things 228 00:10:46,950 --> 00:10:45,940 we've got one of the we've got the 229 00:10:48,390 --> 00:10:46,960 feeling that they're being followed 230 00:10:50,510 --> 00:10:48,400 feeling they're being watched 231 00:10:53,820 --> 00:10:50,520 that's another sign of sleep deprivation 232 00:10:56,150 --> 00:10:53,830 and we've got the unable to remember the 233 00:10:59,840 --> 00:10:56,160 last several miles driven another 234 00:11:02,630 --> 00:10:59,850 well-publicized well-known sign of 235 00:11:06,030 --> 00:11:02,640 drowsy driving now is this 236 00:11:07,340 --> 00:11:06,040 scientifically of these tests or where 237 00:11:10,079 --> 00:11:07,350 do you were you getting this information 238 00:11:12,689 --> 00:11:10,089 well the National drowsy driving 239 00:11:14,910 --> 00:11:12,699 organization grouse birth I picked up 240 00:11:18,090 --> 00:11:14,920 the Town Hall about don't drive drowsy 241 00:11:21,090 --> 00:11:18,100 things like that drowsy driving yeah I'm 242 00:11:23,879 --> 00:11:21,100 sure they exist I don't claim to be any 243 00:11:26,549 --> 00:11:23,889 kind of expert on drowsy driving but I 244 00:11:30,030 --> 00:11:26,559 am able to to read a brochure from the 245 00:11:31,889 --> 00:11:30,040 highway department yeah at I think what 246 00:11:33,989 --> 00:11:31,899 Jim is saying as the ring of truth too 247 00:11:37,019 --> 00:11:33,999 because I notice a little bit something 248 00:11:38,999 --> 00:11:37,029 about sleep deprivation and there there 249 00:11:40,650 --> 00:11:39,009 are scenarios that are documented what 250 00:11:42,179 --> 00:11:40,660 people begin to hallucinate the people 251 00:11:45,900 --> 00:11:42,189 again that they believe that they see 252 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:45,910 things for example Navy SEALs and Green 253 00:11:49,319 --> 00:11:47,410 Berets when they undergo their training 254 00:11:54,660 --> 00:11:49,329 they're intentionally deprived of sleep 255 00:11:56,730 --> 00:11:54,670 and there have been tales of Special 256 00:11:59,579 --> 00:11:56,740 Forces guys on one of these out lost in 257 00:12:01,230 --> 00:11:59,589 the woods well they see fairies and God 258 00:12:03,150 --> 00:12:01,240 only know what else they see out there 259 00:12:04,350 --> 00:12:03,160 but there's a ring of truth that leads 260 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:04,360 to the sleep doctor sleep deprivation 261 00:12:09,660 --> 00:12:07,050 part I think we can agree on that 262 00:12:12,509 --> 00:12:09,670 yep but there's there's quite a bit more 263 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:12,519 to the story so how do you piece the 264 00:12:19,650 --> 00:12:15,970 other pieces together okay go ahead 265 00:12:21,179 --> 00:12:19,660 okay well let's let's go through this we 266 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:21,189 have a time kick when they stopped in 267 00:12:25,019 --> 00:12:23,170 Colebrook which is my current hometown I 268 00:12:27,859 --> 00:12:25,029 have where they're leaving the 269 00:12:32,609 --> 00:12:27,869 restaurant at about 10:00 p.m. and 270 00:12:36,539 --> 00:12:32,619 heading down Route 3 later on fuller 271 00:12:39,900 --> 00:12:36,549 says they're approaching Frank Franconia 272 00:12:43,980 --> 00:12:39,910 Notch at around 11:00 this is impossible 273 00:12:47,239 --> 00:12:43,990 this cannot be done so if they were 274 00:12:49,949 --> 00:12:47,249 getting that approaching the mountains 275 00:12:51,539 --> 00:12:49,959 purchasing the notch around 11:00 that 276 00:12:56,639 --> 00:12:51,549 tells me that their watches have already 277 00:12:58,199 --> 00:12:56,649 stopped by that point so the the fact 278 00:13:01,049 --> 00:12:58,209 that they're the next day their watches 279 00:13:05,119 --> 00:13:01,059 didn't work that had already happened 280 00:13:08,210 --> 00:13:05,129 long before the UFO even showed up so 281 00:13:11,389 --> 00:13:08,220 what how long does it normally take from 282 00:13:16,519 --> 00:13:11,399 the two stops you're talking about 283 00:13:19,530 --> 00:13:16,529 between Colebrook and Franconia Notch 284 00:13:20,970 --> 00:13:19,540 around an hour and a half and that's 285 00:13:23,490 --> 00:13:20,980 with the modern road 286 00:13:25,980 --> 00:13:23,500 straightened and leveled right and with 287 00:13:28,980 --> 00:13:25,990 a modern vehicle as well with a modern 288 00:13:32,939 --> 00:13:28,990 vehicle with modern headlights as 289 00:13:35,310 --> 00:13:32,949 opposed to a 1961 vehicle I don't know 290 00:13:37,110 --> 00:13:35,320 if there is anything you could walk up 291 00:13:39,210 --> 00:13:37,120 but if I recall correctly headlights 292 00:13:41,220 --> 00:13:39,220 were a lot dimmer in those days it's a 293 00:13:45,030 --> 00:13:41,230 57 Chevy Bel Air or I think they were 294 00:13:48,569 --> 00:13:45,040 driving so let's get into other parts of 295 00:13:52,290 --> 00:13:48,579 this story and you know the well first 296 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:52,300 of all it was something that they didn't 297 00:13:56,460 --> 00:13:54,130 come out with they didn't go public with 298 00:13:58,560 --> 00:13:56,470 this am I right about that that's that's 299 00:14:01,019 --> 00:13:58,570 true I have no idea how it eventually 300 00:14:04,699 --> 00:14:01,029 came out it was after they talked with a 301 00:14:07,019 --> 00:14:04,709 psychiatrist if I recall correctly I 302 00:14:09,030 --> 00:14:07,029 believe that Betty and Barney were 303 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:09,040 completely honest absolutely truthful 304 00:14:15,389 --> 00:14:12,370 good people I don't believe they were 305 00:14:17,189 --> 00:14:15,399 fibbing or making things up I believe 306 00:14:21,150 --> 00:14:17,199 they're telling us exactly what they 307 00:14:23,370 --> 00:14:21,160 remembered what I don't believe though 308 00:14:28,110 --> 00:14:23,380 is that what they remembered is what 309 00:14:31,490 --> 00:14:28,120 actually happened so yeah I think that 310 00:14:34,699 --> 00:14:31,500 we've got a case of drowsy driving plus 311 00:14:40,319 --> 00:14:34,709 misidentification of a common object 312 00:14:45,170 --> 00:14:40,329 which over time and with the hypnotic 313 00:14:48,809 --> 00:14:45,180 regression led them to a fantastic story 314 00:14:50,220 --> 00:14:48,819 when a psychiatrist does treatment on 315 00:14:52,590 --> 00:14:50,230 the person they aren't looking for 316 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:52,600 absolute truth they're looking for the 317 00:15:01,699 --> 00:14:56,370 psychological reality rather than the 318 00:15:05,759 --> 00:15:01,709 the the yardstick and stopwatch reality 319 00:15:08,509 --> 00:15:05,769 so now I remember I remember talking 320 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:08,519 with Cathy Mardon 321 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:11,170 Betty's niece and she said that there 322 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:14,050 were concentric marks on the back of the 323 00:15:22,650 --> 00:15:15,970 vehicle there was a lot of things but in 324 00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:22,660 details you know they had some type of 325 00:15:27,689 --> 00:15:24,910 encounter according to them and we're 326 00:15:29,639 --> 00:15:27,699 and you'd think this is all even though 327 00:15:31,949 --> 00:15:29,649 they both had great detail about it you 328 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:31,959 think it's all driven by sleep 329 00:15:36,490 --> 00:15:33,650 deprivation is that what I'm getting 330 00:15:39,110 --> 00:15:36,500 yep sleep deprivation and 331 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:39,120 misidentification of a common object we 332 00:15:42,410 --> 00:15:40,650 don't know how long those marks have 333 00:15:44,930 --> 00:15:42,420 been on the back of the of the trunk do 334 00:15:46,730 --> 00:15:44,940 we we don't know if that they were there 335 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:46,740 a week before and only now that 336 00:15:50,170 --> 00:15:48,450 something weird has happened are we 337 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:50,180 looking at the car and oh my goodness 338 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:53,490 here's something weird if I recall 339 00:15:58,880 --> 00:15:56,850 correctly they checked these these marks 340 00:16:01,400 --> 00:15:58,890 on the trunk of the car by running a 341 00:16:04,190 --> 00:16:01,410 magnet running the accomplice by animus 342 00:16:06,290 --> 00:16:04,200 and the top acetal daeviated proving 343 00:16:08,150 --> 00:16:06,300 that you were radioactive I don't know 344 00:16:10,370 --> 00:16:08,160 how to tell you this but that doesn't 345 00:16:12,650 --> 00:16:10,380 measure radioactivity right 346 00:16:16,490 --> 00:16:12,660 it measures whether or not the compass 347 00:16:18,410 --> 00:16:16,500 was near an iron object and a 57 Bel Air 348 00:16:22,820 --> 00:16:18,420 is pretty darned iron if I remember 349 00:16:24,860 --> 00:16:22,830 correctly right yeah also relate to the 350 00:16:28,910 --> 00:16:24,870 magnetic properties of an object as well 351 00:16:32,770 --> 00:16:28,920 all right now what about I I think you 352 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:32,780 know there's there's a project Bluebook 353 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:43,220 way back in the 50s and 60s and again 354 00:16:46,070 --> 00:16:44,970 I'm not speaking as any kind of expert 355 00:16:47,950 --> 00:16:46,080 I'm not claiming to be any kind of 356 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:47,960 expert 357 00:16:52,790 --> 00:16:50,490 there was a big question about what 358 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:52,800 exactly the Soviet Union was up to 359 00:16:58,630 --> 00:16:55,770 they were supermen who were ten feet 360 00:17:01,520 --> 00:16:58,640 tall and had all kinds of super science 361 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:01,530 remember that there was a question 362 00:17:05,030 --> 00:17:03,090 whether or not the Russians were using 363 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:05,040 remote viewing to be able to read secret 364 00:17:11,120 --> 00:17:08,490 documents so the CIA got some telepaths 365 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:11,130 to see if they could do it too because 366 00:17:17,510 --> 00:17:13,610 nobody knew whether it was real or not 367 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:17,520 so there's strange objects flying around 368 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:18,570 the in the sky 369 00:17:26,750 --> 00:17:22,050 are they Russian super science crafts 370 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:26,760 we've got to check it out so blue book 371 00:17:31,330 --> 00:17:28,770 from the fact that it's got a two-word 372 00:17:34,490 --> 00:17:31,340 name we know it's a classified project 373 00:17:35,630 --> 00:17:34,500 and for the fact that it the name has 374 00:17:38,540 --> 00:17:35,640 nothing to do with what it's all about 375 00:17:42,620 --> 00:17:38,550 classified project so I'm sure it's been 376 00:17:45,230 --> 00:17:42,630 Declassified by now what did blue book 377 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:45,240 have to say about of course there the US 378 00:17:51,020 --> 00:17:47,490 is going to investigate and 379 00:17:54,380 --> 00:17:51,030 report of a of a flying object because 380 00:17:56,930 --> 00:17:54,390 it could be a Russian this in the close 381 00:17:59,780 --> 00:17:56,940 encounter Betty and Barney took places 382 00:18:02,360 --> 00:17:59,790 back in 61 that was between the Bay of 383 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:02,370 Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis the 384 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:05,010 Cold War was about as frosty osa is it 385 00:18:11,870 --> 00:18:09,330 was going to get so I would think that 386 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:11,880 the Air Force would be remiss if they 387 00:18:20,270 --> 00:18:15,890 were not investigating hmm well I 388 00:18:24,250 --> 00:18:20,280 understand that now so if we're walking 389 00:18:28,210 --> 00:18:24,260 all the way through all of this there's 390 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:28,220 it goes all the way to later on that 391 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:31,770 Betty recalls a star chart and okay 392 00:18:37,820 --> 00:18:33,450 let's hear what you have to say about 393 00:18:40,100 --> 00:18:37,830 that I mean that's another okay you have 394 00:18:43,390 --> 00:18:40,110 a bunch of random points and you've got 395 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:43,400 a huge universe they can match them with 396 00:18:48,169 --> 00:18:45,690 people who are better qualified than I 397 00:18:50,390 --> 00:18:48,179 have said that it only matches if you 398 00:18:52,430 --> 00:18:50,400 leave out certain really major features 399 00:18:55,070 --> 00:18:52,440 and that you're making as 400 00:18:58,130 --> 00:18:55,080 two-dimensional object map onto some 401 00:18:59,960 --> 00:18:58,140 kind of three-dimensional space I think 402 00:19:02,780 --> 00:18:59,970 that the psychiatrist said that we'll 403 00:19:05,450 --> 00:19:02,790 know it's true if we get to set a 404 00:19:07,940 --> 00:19:05,460 particular eye or wherever and there is 405 00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:07,950 a civilization there then we'll know for 406 00:19:13,850 --> 00:19:11,280 sure until then unproven I bet you a 407 00:19:16,669 --> 00:19:13,860 nickel but I could throw a handful of 408 00:19:19,100 --> 00:19:16,679 seeds onto a piece of paper mark down 409 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:19,110 where they fell and map it to somewhere 410 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:21,090 in the universe well there's there's no 411 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:23,610 doubt that that's possible given the the 412 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:25,410 the state of the universe as we know it 413 00:19:30,380 --> 00:19:27,050 today 414 00:19:32,990 --> 00:19:30,390 that's a given it's it's you could put 415 00:19:35,210 --> 00:19:33,000 any type of configuration who represent 416 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:35,220 whatever type of star system a galaxy 417 00:19:39,799 --> 00:19:37,650 that that exists that we know of and in 418 00:19:43,090 --> 00:19:39,809 the present time but the the pot that 419 00:19:45,830 --> 00:19:43,100 gives me the trouble about this Jim and 420 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:45,840 I'm coming at this from from a police 421 00:19:49,930 --> 00:19:48,210 perspective and I've dealt with hundreds 422 00:19:53,210 --> 00:19:49,940 of hundreds of witnesses in my career 423 00:19:55,130 --> 00:19:53,220 and sometimes all you have really is 424 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:55,140 witness testimony you don't have 425 00:19:58,519 --> 00:19:56,610 physical evidence you don't really have 426 00:20:01,669 --> 00:19:58,529 a lot to corroborate what the witness 427 00:20:04,279 --> 00:20:01,679 I put people into prison based on 428 00:20:08,269 --> 00:20:04,289 witness testimony but yeah level of 429 00:20:11,239 --> 00:20:08,279 detail that these people provided it 430 00:20:13,009 --> 00:20:11,249 impresses me and and the point I'm 431 00:20:15,109 --> 00:20:13,019 trying to get us you know something what 432 00:20:18,529 --> 00:20:15,119 people put together a type of story like 433 00:20:20,989 --> 00:20:18,539 that at that level of detail even 434 00:20:23,389 --> 00:20:20,999 they're just wildly exaggerating what 435 00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:23,399 happened and I tip my hat for them if 436 00:20:28,070 --> 00:20:25,200 that's the case because that's an 437 00:20:30,649 --> 00:20:28,080 extraordinary level of detail but the 438 00:20:32,649 --> 00:20:30,659 other part is is if they are making this 439 00:20:38,599 --> 00:20:32,659 up out of whole cloth or if they are 440 00:20:43,729 --> 00:20:41,960 the psychiatrist was of the opinion that 441 00:20:45,649 --> 00:20:43,739 they were confabulated he's a 442 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:45,659 board-certified psychiatrist who 443 00:20:52,820 --> 00:20:48,570 examined them in person Who am I to say 444 00:20:55,519 --> 00:20:52,830 that that he was wrong well what's the 445 00:20:57,109 --> 00:20:55,529 motive why why would why would somebody 446 00:20:58,729 --> 00:20:57,119 first of all explores himself to public 447 00:21:00,849 --> 00:20:58,739 ridicule because sooner or later that 448 00:21:03,769 --> 00:21:00,859 their identities are gonna become known 449 00:21:07,669 --> 00:21:03,779 and I had the same impression when I 450 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:07,679 read dr. max book which was I believe me 451 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:09,570 I'm I'm with you on the skeptic side of 452 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:11,730 this i this gives me problems and I 453 00:21:15,950 --> 00:21:14,129 think if I'm not mistaken I don't want 454 00:21:18,889 --> 00:21:15,960 to speak for Martin but he's also 455 00:21:23,389 --> 00:21:18,899 skeptic on this as far as far as I'm 456 00:21:27,019 --> 00:21:23,399 aware on the whole issue of abduction oh 457 00:21:30,139 --> 00:21:27,029 the abduction part of I don't say that 458 00:21:31,849 --> 00:21:30,149 I'm all right no skeptic I was yeah I'm 459 00:21:34,759 --> 00:21:31,859 more of a I'm you know I've been on the 460 00:21:37,729 --> 00:21:34,769 fence about it you know but I think that 461 00:21:40,399 --> 00:21:37,739 there's something to it like I I do 462 00:21:42,169 --> 00:21:40,409 think that there are UFOs I don't know I 463 00:21:44,570 --> 00:21:42,179 don't pretend to say that I know what 464 00:21:46,909 --> 00:21:44,580 they are and you know from firsthand 465 00:21:53,389 --> 00:21:46,919 experience and I didn't have sleep 466 00:21:55,639 --> 00:21:53,399 deprivation but you know I I think it it 467 00:21:57,680 --> 00:21:55,649 only makes sense that if we are being 468 00:22:00,430 --> 00:21:57,690 explored even if it's not interstellar 469 00:22:03,470 --> 00:22:00,440 somehow being explored by something else 470 00:22:06,919 --> 00:22:03,480 you know a logical thing is to take 471 00:22:10,220 --> 00:22:06,929 samples in to test things so I think 472 00:22:11,450 --> 00:22:10,230 it's you know that part of the abduction 473 00:22:12,830 --> 00:22:11,460 and there are some abductions 474 00:22:15,289 --> 00:22:12,840 stories I've always thought this was a 475 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:15,299 pretty solid case there are some other 476 00:22:19,970 --> 00:22:16,890 abduction stories that I think are very 477 00:22:22,370 --> 00:22:19,980 solid and very interesting that have no 478 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:22,380 explanation and you know later on in the 479 00:22:25,820 --> 00:22:23,850 show we can talk a little bit about that 480 00:22:28,340 --> 00:22:25,830 what you think about other things Jim 481 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:28,350 but for right now I want to say that if 482 00:22:33,409 --> 00:22:30,090 anyone is out there and they want to 483 00:22:36,039 --> 00:22:33,419 call in I'm taking calls early so you 484 00:22:40,010 --> 00:22:36,049 can call that number is one six oh three 485 00:22:43,310 --> 00:22:40,020 nine six seven 403 Oh callers are 486 00:22:46,250 --> 00:22:43,320 welcome to call in just make sure that 487 00:22:48,889 --> 00:22:46,260 if you're calling and you have your your 488 00:22:56,330 --> 00:22:48,899 volume down on on what you're listening 489 00:22:59,649 --> 00:22:56,340 to the show life so what about you know 490 00:23:02,659 --> 00:22:59,659 the the things that happen to them 491 00:23:05,450 --> 00:23:02,669 during this suppose that abduction Jim 492 00:23:07,070 --> 00:23:05,460 other people have said you know that the 493 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:07,080 same similar things have happened you 494 00:23:11,419 --> 00:23:08,850 don't think they're just copycats do you 495 00:23:13,700 --> 00:23:11,429 I mean people and say other other 496 00:23:15,380 --> 00:23:13,710 countries I'll hold on Jim actually we 497 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:15,390 have we have someone calling in right 498 00:23:21,529 --> 00:23:16,770 now okay okay 499 00:23:24,769 --> 00:23:21,539 and caller can you hear me welcome to 500 00:23:28,130 --> 00:23:24,779 the show yes I can hear you all right oh 501 00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:28,140 this is Kathy yes it is hi Kathy how are 502 00:23:33,889 --> 00:23:31,110 you I'm doing well who is it this is 503 00:23:36,470 --> 00:23:33,899 Martin and welcome to the show thanks 504 00:23:38,630 --> 00:23:36,480 for calling in so we have Kathy Martin 505 00:23:43,639 --> 00:23:38,640 on the line Jim have you ever spoken 506 00:23:47,260 --> 00:23:43,649 with her I've exchanged some some posts 507 00:23:51,590 --> 00:23:47,270 on some comments in the blog post yeah 508 00:23:53,090 --> 00:23:51,600 alright so I hate Kathy go ahead would 509 00:23:55,730 --> 00:23:53,100 I'd actually like to hear what you have 510 00:23:57,980 --> 00:23:55,740 to say to the show have you been 511 00:24:00,080 --> 00:23:57,990 listening so far so what do you have to 512 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:00,090 say with what's what Jim has talked 513 00:24:05,899 --> 00:24:02,610 about so far well I would like to 514 00:24:07,870 --> 00:24:05,909 correct some misinformation with regard 515 00:24:10,370 --> 00:24:07,880 to some of the things that Jim said 516 00:24:13,190 --> 00:24:10,380 first of all he stated that the hills 517 00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:13,200 had started that day and I have all and 518 00:24:19,700 --> 00:24:17,130 that is false they had left Niagara 519 00:24:23,539 --> 00:24:19,710 Falls the day before that and they spent 520 00:24:25,270 --> 00:24:23,549 the night in a motel 112 miles west of 521 00:24:28,700 --> 00:24:25,280 Montreal 522 00:24:31,490 --> 00:24:28,710 they did have a very good night's sleep 523 00:24:37,550 --> 00:24:31,500 they did the tourist thing in Montreal 524 00:24:39,170 --> 00:24:37,560 and then they started to drive home they 525 00:24:42,140 --> 00:24:39,180 decided that they would stop along the 526 00:24:43,700 --> 00:24:42,150 way if they grew tired but they had a 527 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:43,710 really good night's sleep the night 528 00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:46,650 before so they decided not to stop and 529 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:50,370 then they had this sighting of the craft 530 00:24:56,930 --> 00:24:53,970 that came in closer and closer now a 531 00:24:59,720 --> 00:24:56,940 point that I really do want to make is 532 00:25:02,450 --> 00:24:59,730 that they described this is appearing to 533 00:25:04,820 --> 00:25:02,460 be spinning it appeared to be lighted on 534 00:25:07,610 --> 00:25:04,830 only one side which gave it a twinkling 535 00:25:09,830 --> 00:25:07,620 effect they said is it glided closer 536 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:09,840 Barney was able to see inside this 537 00:25:14,990 --> 00:25:12,210 object but not too closely he did see 538 00:25:16,850 --> 00:25:15,000 many figures scurrying about as though 539 00:25:19,820 --> 00:25:16,860 they were making some hurried type of 540 00:25:22,490 --> 00:25:19,830 preparation one figure was observing us 541 00:25:24,140 --> 00:25:22,500 betty wrote from the window from the 542 00:25:26,350 --> 00:25:24,150 distance this was seen the figures 543 00:25:28,550 --> 00:25:26,360 appeared to be of the size of a pencil 544 00:25:30,890 --> 00:25:28,560 thinking of a pencil held at arm's 545 00:25:34,810 --> 00:25:30,900 length and seemed to be dressed in some 546 00:25:38,150 --> 00:25:34,820 type of shiny black uniform this was 547 00:25:42,070 --> 00:25:38,160 quoted from the letter that betty wrote 548 00:25:48,290 --> 00:25:42,080 to Donald Kehoe the head of NICAP on 549 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:48,300 September 26 1961 they also made an Air 550 00:25:53,900 --> 00:25:51,210 Force Blue Book report and you were 551 00:25:58,310 --> 00:25:53,910 showing that as well and in the Blue 552 00:26:01,460 --> 00:25:58,320 Book report it stated that this craft 553 00:26:05,810 --> 00:26:01,470 had swooped down and when it swooped 554 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:05,820 down at first it appeared to be the size 555 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:09,570 of a dinner plate held at arm's length 556 00:26:15,410 --> 00:26:13,050 imagine this the full moon can be 557 00:26:17,930 --> 00:26:15,420 covered by an aspirin held at arm's 558 00:26:21,740 --> 00:26:17,940 length so this was the size of a dinner 559 00:26:25,450 --> 00:26:21,750 plate this was enormous and this was 560 00:26:29,090 --> 00:26:25,460 seen by Betty and Barney when they were 561 00:26:31,610 --> 00:26:29,100 south of Franconia Notch in Lincoln New 562 00:26:35,150 --> 00:26:31,620 Hampshire they were across the street 563 00:26:38,780 --> 00:26:35,160 from the knotch Express which is south 564 00:26:42,470 --> 00:26:38,790 of Indian Head the Indian had resort 565 00:26:46,820 --> 00:26:42,480 so this was a very large object reported 566 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:46,830 to NICAP reported to the Air Force and I 567 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:49,050 think that those are two very important 568 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:52,410 points because that light up on top of 569 00:26:58,120 --> 00:26:54,810 Cannon Mountain which Betty did speak of 570 00:27:00,710 --> 00:26:58,130 and was aware that it was there and 571 00:27:05,690 --> 00:27:00,720 described the craft of being very 572 00:27:07,700 --> 00:27:05,700 different from that I think that it is 573 00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:07,710 very very important to consider those 574 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:11,310 things because you cannot see that light 575 00:27:17,090 --> 00:27:14,250 from the position if you're looking 576 00:27:19,670 --> 00:27:17,100 north from where Betty and Barney's car 577 00:27:23,150 --> 00:27:19,680 was stopped after this object swooped 578 00:27:27,230 --> 00:27:23,160 down and at first with about two hundred 579 00:27:28,940 --> 00:27:27,240 feet above Barney Jim can look in the 580 00:27:31,420 --> 00:27:28,950 interrupted journey or he could also 581 00:27:33,980 --> 00:27:31,430 look in my book with Stanton Friedman 582 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:33,990 captured the Betty and Barney Hill UFO 583 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:36,690 experience and there he will see 584 00:27:42,710 --> 00:27:39,810 Barney's sketches that he drew when he 585 00:27:44,810 --> 00:27:42,720 arrived home and on those sketches he 586 00:27:47,210 --> 00:27:44,820 wrote first this is how it looked when 587 00:27:49,700 --> 00:27:47,220 it was about 200 feet in the air and 588 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:49,710 then on the bottom this is how it looked 589 00:27:54,670 --> 00:27:51,810 when it was about a hundred feet in the 590 00:27:58,070 --> 00:27:54,680 air and you can see that he has drawn 591 00:28:00,740 --> 00:27:58,080 stick figures behind the windows in 592 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:00,750 those sketches so I think that these are 593 00:28:06,190 --> 00:28:03,570 some very important points that have to 594 00:28:11,390 --> 00:28:06,200 be made now the close encounter field 595 00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:11,400 was where the object was seen they 596 00:28:17,540 --> 00:28:14,370 arrived at that at about midnight so 597 00:28:22,370 --> 00:28:17,550 that was about two hours from Kohlberg 598 00:28:24,710 --> 00:28:22,380 and so those are some of the points that 599 00:28:26,870 --> 00:28:24,720 that I think that really need to be 600 00:28:29,450 --> 00:28:26,880 addressed yeah I just had a quick 601 00:28:31,490 --> 00:28:29,460 question for you mentioned that that 602 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:31,500 they had driven from Montreal about a 603 00:28:36,740 --> 00:28:33,570 hundred and I think your words are 112 604 00:28:40,580 --> 00:28:36,750 miles west of Montreal what is that 605 00:28:43,580 --> 00:28:40,590 right yeah if they'd stayed in Montreal 606 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:43,590 the night previously then why did they 607 00:28:52,910 --> 00:28:50,250 decide to stop in and sleep two miles 608 00:28:55,100 --> 00:28:52,920 outside of Montreal and you 609 00:28:56,900 --> 00:28:55,110 if that mileage is crap that's just over 610 00:29:00,430 --> 00:28:56,910 the border from New Hampshire 611 00:29:04,130 --> 00:29:00,440 no they I think you got that wrong 612 00:29:11,830 --> 00:29:04,140 correct okay from it they slept they 613 00:29:14,810 --> 00:29:11,840 spent the night of the 18th in Ontario a 614 00:29:17,210 --> 00:29:14,820 hundred and twelve miles west of 615 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:17,220 Montreal okay right they drove east 616 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:20,730 toward Montreal they visited Old 617 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:23,010 Montreal they drove around they did the 618 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:26,970 sightseeing thing in Montreal and then 619 00:29:31,039 --> 00:29:29,970 from Montreal to Colebrook is a hundred 620 00:29:34,070 --> 00:29:31,049 and thirty miles 621 00:29:37,130 --> 00:29:34,080 they left Colebrook at ten o'clock at 622 00:29:43,130 --> 00:29:37,140 night and from Colebrook to Lancaster is 623 00:29:45,140 --> 00:29:43,140 thirty five miles so from Lancaster to 624 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:45,150 Portsmouth New Hampshire is a hundred 625 00:29:51,230 --> 00:29:47,730 and forty three miles my husband and I 626 00:29:53,780 --> 00:29:51,240 drove this entire route from Niagara 627 00:29:56,780 --> 00:29:53,790 Falls all the way to Portsmouth New 628 00:29:59,960 --> 00:29:56,790 Hampshire in two days 629 00:30:02,539 --> 00:29:59,970 just like Betty and Barney did following 630 00:30:05,630 --> 00:30:02,549 the same route that they took in the 631 00:30:10,340 --> 00:30:05,640 same time frame in the same month of the 632 00:30:12,740 --> 00:30:10,350 year and we were 20 years older than 633 00:30:16,370 --> 00:30:12,750 Betty and Barney when they took that 634 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:16,380 drive and we were not extremely tired 635 00:30:23,060 --> 00:30:20,370 and we were not hallucinating so I don't 636 00:30:25,850 --> 00:30:23,070 think that Betty and Barney who were 20 637 00:30:28,909 --> 00:30:25,860 years younger than us when we took that 638 00:30:31,310 --> 00:30:28,919 drive were hallucinating or tired and 639 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:31,320 certainly they were credible individuals 640 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:34,530 who wanted to do the right thing they 641 00:30:39,380 --> 00:30:36,570 were asked to make a report to Pease Air 642 00:30:41,930 --> 00:30:39,390 Force Base the Project Blue Book they 643 00:30:44,930 --> 00:30:41,940 did that they followed the instructions 644 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:44,940 that were given to them and they had a 645 00:30:50,210 --> 00:30:47,970 considerable amount of circumstantial 646 00:30:54,470 --> 00:30:50,220 and physical evidence when they arrived 647 00:30:56,750 --> 00:30:54,480 home Jim you have some questions yeah 648 00:30:58,610 --> 00:30:56,760 okay first of all let's remove 649 00:31:01,970 --> 00:30:58,620 everything that's a recovered memory 650 00:31:04,250 --> 00:31:01,980 okay so I have no what I'm telling you 651 00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:04,260 these aren't recovered memories they're 652 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:05,910 everything I've told you is not a 653 00:31:09,230 --> 00:31:06,730 recovered 654 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:09,240 it was all conscious continuous recall 655 00:31:12,870 --> 00:31:10,810 okay 656 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:12,880 within the lat a few days after the 657 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:15,730 event cool now at the point where 658 00:31:21,330 --> 00:31:17,050 they're standing at the foot of Cannon 659 00:31:24,180 --> 00:31:21,340 Mountain there and they see the light at 660 00:31:26,460 --> 00:31:24,190 the top of the tramway and they see 661 00:31:30,750 --> 00:31:26,470 above and to the left of that light they 662 00:31:33,870 --> 00:31:30,760 see their UFO remember that point yes 663 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:33,880 they were on the old section of Route 664 00:31:40,050 --> 00:31:37,810 three uh there's a there's a bridge if 665 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:40,060 you go on to the old Hugh gallon bridge 666 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:44,410 where the old route three was they they 667 00:31:50,970 --> 00:31:47,530 stopped at the base of the old man of 668 00:31:54,090 --> 00:31:50,980 the mountains they looked up and they 669 00:31:57,930 --> 00:31:54,100 saw an object next to the old man's 670 00:32:01,380 --> 00:31:57,940 profile and that object appeared to be 671 00:32:03,660 --> 00:32:01,390 at least one and a half times to two 672 00:32:08,340 --> 00:32:03,670 times the length of the old man's 673 00:32:10,350 --> 00:32:08,350 profile it appeared to be spinning okay 674 00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:10,360 but let's move back to the foot of 675 00:32:15,390 --> 00:32:12,640 profile Lake okay what Afghan and 676 00:32:17,670 --> 00:32:15,400 mountain profile like they're looking up 677 00:32:20,130 --> 00:32:17,680 at the tramway they see the lights of 678 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:20,140 the at the station the top of the 679 00:32:27,930 --> 00:32:23,170 tramway right above and to the left they 680 00:32:31,140 --> 00:32:27,940 see the UFO is this correct so far to 681 00:32:34,290 --> 00:32:31,150 the left by the old man's profile you 682 00:32:36,030 --> 00:32:34,300 cannot see the old man there well they 683 00:32:39,180 --> 00:32:36,040 were they were looking up at the old 684 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:39,190 man's profile okay from the old man 685 00:32:44,430 --> 00:32:41,650 location they could see the old man's 686 00:32:46,710 --> 00:32:44,440 profile from where they stopped that 687 00:32:51,060 --> 00:32:46,720 night where was the point where they 688 00:32:53,190 --> 00:32:51,070 could see the lights on the tramway well 689 00:32:56,850 --> 00:32:53,200 they would have seen the light when they 690 00:32:59,370 --> 00:32:56,860 came in along the Hugh gallon bridge and 691 00:33:01,890 --> 00:32:59,380 look straight ahead I've driven that 692 00:33:06,420 --> 00:33:01,900 many times and you can you can see that 693 00:33:09,540 --> 00:33:06,430 light absolutely can and okay you see 694 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:09,550 the life of tramway and and they saw 695 00:33:16,110 --> 00:33:12,370 their UFO above a to the left of the 696 00:33:18,630 --> 00:33:16,120 tramways is correct Dave well as they 697 00:33:20,670 --> 00:33:18,640 were driving in they saw the object pass 698 00:33:24,780 --> 00:33:20,680 over the top of the bill 699 00:33:27,930 --> 00:33:24,790 at the top of the mountain and then they 700 00:33:30,630 --> 00:33:27,940 stopped the car by the old man of the 701 00:33:33,390 --> 00:33:30,640 mountain and looked up at the craft ever 702 00:33:36,330 --> 00:33:33,400 as it hovered next to the old man's 703 00:33:38,910 --> 00:33:36,340 profile and then it moved in a stair 704 00:33:42,890 --> 00:33:38,920 step pattern and the pattern was very 705 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:42,900 erratic they told the airforce okay 706 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:46,810 the point I'm trying to get to is that 707 00:33:51,450 --> 00:33:49,090 at the point where you can see the 708 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:51,460 tramway lights top of the tramway and 709 00:33:56,460 --> 00:33:53,890 they saw a UFO above and to the left 710 00:33:58,500 --> 00:33:56,470 what you would have seen what I would 711 00:34:01,020 --> 00:33:58,510 have seen what anybody else would have 712 00:34:03,570 --> 00:34:01,030 seen that same night would have been the 713 00:34:05,730 --> 00:34:03,580 lights at the top of the tramway and the 714 00:34:08,970 --> 00:34:05,740 aircraft safety light on the top of the 715 00:34:10,980 --> 00:34:08,980 watch tower on Cannon Mountain yes of 716 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:10,990 course the aircraft safety light was 717 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:13,330 there and Betty said that it was had 718 00:34:18,030 --> 00:34:15,370 been changed over the years so the light 719 00:34:20,550 --> 00:34:18,040 that's there now is different from the 720 00:34:23,850 --> 00:34:20,560 one that was there in 1961 she was 721 00:34:26,070 --> 00:34:23,860 always aware of that light but that's 722 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:26,080 really inconsequential because they 723 00:34:35,300 --> 00:34:30,130 drove another eight miles looking at 724 00:34:37,980 --> 00:34:35,310 that craft as it moved itself and then 725 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:37,990 betty was becoming excited because it 726 00:34:42,540 --> 00:34:40,330 was moving in closer and closer this is 727 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:42,550 all part of the conscious continuous 728 00:34:50,220 --> 00:34:47,169 recall where it swooped down over the 729 00:34:52,980 --> 00:34:50,230 top of the road and Barney had to stop 730 00:34:55,620 --> 00:34:52,990 the car in the middle of the road in 731 00:35:01,800 --> 00:34:55,630 order not to be directly underneath that 732 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:01,810 craft okay do you know where the notch 733 00:35:09,780 --> 00:35:06,450 express gas station and stories I do 734 00:35:12,330 --> 00:35:09,790 okay well the close encounter field is 735 00:35:13,820 --> 00:35:12,340 right across the street from the notch 736 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:13,830 Express 737 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:18,130 okay route route 93 was not there in 738 00:35:22,650 --> 00:35:21,010 1961 I know but there's not a lot of 739 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:22,660 room between the sides of mountains to 740 00:35:28,170 --> 00:35:25,450 put another Road 93 at that location is 741 00:35:32,460 --> 00:35:28,180 the only interstate in the United States 742 00:35:34,260 --> 00:35:32,470 is two lanes right so root three and 743 00:35:36,210 --> 00:35:34,270 route 93 are 744 00:35:39,540 --> 00:35:36,220 pretty much in the same locations where 745 00:35:41,850 --> 00:35:39,550 they were back in 61 chemical wasit 746 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:41,860 River River has not changed its location 747 00:35:53,610 --> 00:35:47,410 and 93 had not been constructed that far 748 00:35:57,630 --> 00:35:53,620 north in 1951 nine had been it got worse 749 00:36:01,230 --> 00:35:57,640 93 got to Tilton and in 61 yeah direct I 750 00:36:03,900 --> 00:36:01,240 have the map in 1961 map right but 751 00:36:07,350 --> 00:36:03,910 question for you this relates back to to 752 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:07,360 Jim's theory or hypothesis that sleep 753 00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:09,130 deprivation was involved do you know 754 00:36:17,190 --> 00:36:12,730 what time they left the their lodging on 755 00:36:21,210 --> 00:36:17,200 the 18th in Ontario there they left 756 00:36:22,980 --> 00:36:21,220 their lodging right around 10 o'clock in 757 00:36:25,140 --> 00:36:22,990 the morning or a little later they had 758 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:25,150 slept late that morning they had a very 759 00:36:29,490 --> 00:36:28,690 good night's sleep they had a big 760 00:36:32,820 --> 00:36:29,500 breakfast 761 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:32,830 and then they drove on to Montreal so 762 00:36:38,850 --> 00:36:35,170 that's about let's say that the state of 763 00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:38,860 the highways wasn't it was pretty close 764 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:42,250 to ours yeah about a two-hour drive so 765 00:36:48,020 --> 00:36:43,810 that puts him in a Montreal around noon 766 00:36:51,540 --> 00:36:48,030 time and they were in Montreal probably 767 00:36:55,980 --> 00:36:51,550 until at what time what did you say 768 00:36:56,610 --> 00:36:55,990 oh probably until 4:00 or 5:00 in the 769 00:37:00,090 --> 00:36:56,620 afternoon 770 00:37:02,580 --> 00:37:00,100 they were leaving the city when the 771 00:37:04,740 --> 00:37:02,590 traffic was picking up so people were 772 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:04,750 getting out of work right and then they 773 00:37:13,790 --> 00:37:09,970 drove toward 112 miles I mean the no 130 774 00:37:19,500 --> 00:37:13,800 miles right from Montreal to Colebrook 775 00:37:23,220 --> 00:37:19,510 yeah so then to get to Colebrook ten 776 00:37:25,590 --> 00:37:23,230 o'clock we said so they they took what 777 00:37:27,060 --> 00:37:25,600 seven to eight eight to nine nine to ten 778 00:37:33,150 --> 00:37:27,070 three hours yet there is that about 779 00:37:34,890 --> 00:37:33,160 right from Montreal to Colebrook yeah 780 00:37:36,210 --> 00:37:34,900 well they stopped you have to consider 781 00:37:38,490 --> 00:37:36,220 the fact that they stopped at a 782 00:37:40,740 --> 00:37:38,500 restaurant they were sightseeing along 783 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:40,750 the way they stopped at a really pretty 784 00:37:45,570 --> 00:37:42,970 little town along the way so they were 785 00:37:48,190 --> 00:37:45,580 doing the sightseeing thing which put 786 00:37:49,599 --> 00:37:48,200 them in Colebrook at ten o'clock so 787 00:37:51,490 --> 00:37:49,609 it took him about three hours to get 788 00:37:53,980 --> 00:37:51,500 from Montreal Colebrook that's not 789 00:37:55,750 --> 00:37:53,990 unreasonable because even with route 10 790 00:37:57,550 --> 00:37:55,760 which is now a superhighway up there in 791 00:37:59,530 --> 00:37:57,560 Canada it still takes you about two 792 00:38:01,329 --> 00:37:59,540 hours if you're just chugging through to 793 00:38:03,430 --> 00:38:01,339 get from Montreal to Colebrook right 794 00:38:05,260 --> 00:38:03,440 so it's not unreasonable yes and they 795 00:38:07,390 --> 00:38:05,270 were on the old road of course of course 796 00:38:10,210 --> 00:38:07,400 my husband and I drove on the old road 797 00:38:11,859 --> 00:38:10,220 yeah when we retraced their route 798 00:38:13,690 --> 00:38:11,869 yeah they deliberately took two-lane 799 00:38:17,020 --> 00:38:13,700 blacktop they didn't take the New York 800 00:38:18,910 --> 00:38:17,030 Thruway and anything like this it goes 801 00:38:21,790 --> 00:38:18,920 through these small towns of you used to 802 00:38:23,530 --> 00:38:21,800 have to slow down so it can take a quite 803 00:38:23,890 --> 00:38:23,540 a period of time it's not like it is 804 00:38:27,190 --> 00:38:23,900 today 805 00:38:29,410 --> 00:38:27,200 I tend as a surprise is that's correct 806 00:38:31,210 --> 00:38:29,420 it took a while oh yeah 807 00:38:34,660 --> 00:38:31,220 it would have taken a while and it's 808 00:38:36,130 --> 00:38:34,670 tiring to do it really is so uh well 809 00:38:39,069 --> 00:38:36,140 they were getting out of the car and 810 00:38:43,170 --> 00:38:39,079 walking and sightseeing and stopping to 811 00:38:46,810 --> 00:38:43,180 eat doing that sort of thing - okay so 812 00:38:49,569 --> 00:38:46,820 took them about five hours probably all 813 00:38:52,660 --> 00:38:49,579 right so you know up sightseeing - to 814 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:52,670 get to Colebrook and then eat and you 815 00:38:57,069 --> 00:38:53,930 know have their snack and their coffee 816 00:38:59,500 --> 00:38:57,079 and leave at 10:00 all right well I 817 00:39:02,500 --> 00:38:59,510 think this is a good opportunity Kathy 818 00:39:05,829 --> 00:39:02,510 that Geron because I'd I'd like to 819 00:39:07,900 --> 00:39:05,839 basically ask you Jim what you think the 820 00:39:11,230 --> 00:39:07,910 weakest part of their story is and then 821 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:11,240 I want to hear what Cathy's answer is to 822 00:39:16,780 --> 00:39:12,770 what you think the weakest part of their 823 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:16,790 story is the weakest part of the story 824 00:39:22,780 --> 00:39:21,290 is if they saw a UFO what what happened 825 00:39:24,790 --> 00:39:22,790 where was the can of mountain light that 826 00:39:28,390 --> 00:39:24,800 whole time that's the weakest part 827 00:39:32,410 --> 00:39:28,400 there's another part which is that that 828 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:32,420 round blowing orange orb that sounds an 829 00:39:37,630 --> 00:39:35,810 awful lot like the round glowing orange 830 00:39:43,599 --> 00:39:37,640 pumpkin on the top of the Jack O'Lantern 831 00:39:46,660 --> 00:39:43,609 Resort in Lincoln and what do you have 832 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:46,670 to say about that Kathy okay with regard 833 00:39:55,150 --> 00:39:51,410 to it wasn't just a glowing orb that was 834 00:39:57,550 --> 00:39:55,160 a fiery red orange orbit he's talking 835 00:39:59,500 --> 00:39:57,560 about the orb that they saw that 836 00:40:01,720 --> 00:39:59,510 appeared to be sitting on the ground and 837 00:40:04,660 --> 00:40:01,730 they later 838 00:40:08,830 --> 00:40:04,670 realized that it was moving but they 839 00:40:12,030 --> 00:40:08,840 were not moving at that point so they 840 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:12,040 probably did pass the Jack O'Lantern 841 00:40:21,210 --> 00:40:17,570 Resort had to they had to yes and I did 842 00:40:24,820 --> 00:40:21,220 put that in captured and I did question 843 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:24,830 why Betty had said something about a 844 00:40:30,370 --> 00:40:27,650 Jack O'Lantern head and I thought well 845 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:30,380 maybe she was just remembering the Jack 846 00:40:35,590 --> 00:40:33,530 O'Lantern head at the top of the Jack 847 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:35,600 O'Lantern resort and I asked her about 848 00:40:40,750 --> 00:40:38,090 that and she said yes well that might be 849 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:40,760 that might be what it was and then they 850 00:40:45,700 --> 00:40:42,770 turned off the road after the Jack 851 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:45,710 O'Lantern Resort they went over a bridge 852 00:40:55,570 --> 00:40:50,810 they turned right and then and Barney's 853 00:40:57,970 --> 00:40:55,580 really it seems was not under his own 854 00:41:01,150 --> 00:40:57,980 control at that point he has seemed to 855 00:41:04,300 --> 00:41:01,160 be controlled by something he made a 856 00:41:07,150 --> 00:41:04,310 very sharp left-hand turn onto Mill 857 00:41:11,650 --> 00:41:07,160 Brook Road which was a logging room in 858 00:41:14,470 --> 00:41:11,660 that time frame and on that logging road 859 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:14,480 it's now a housing development but it 860 00:41:20,140 --> 00:41:17,330 was a small dirt road and there were 861 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:20,150 those nonhumans that he had previously 862 00:41:26,620 --> 00:41:23,690 seen through with binoculars as he was 863 00:41:31,750 --> 00:41:26,630 standing in the field shortly before 864 00:41:34,060 --> 00:41:31,760 that and they stopped the car and then 865 00:41:36,849 --> 00:41:34,070 they approached the car they did not 866 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:36,859 remember that part of it that came out 867 00:41:44,980 --> 00:41:41,090 under hypnosis they did remember turning 868 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:44,990 off Route three they did remember the 869 00:41:50,950 --> 00:41:47,570 close encounter with the craft they did 870 00:41:53,770 --> 00:41:50,960 remember observing the nonhumans or what 871 00:41:57,580 --> 00:41:53,780 Barney described as being somehow not 872 00:42:02,080 --> 00:41:57,590 human that is a quote okay that was made 873 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:02,090 to Walter Webb who was from nycap he was 874 00:42:07,780 --> 00:42:05,090 an astronomer from Massachusetts he 875 00:42:09,849 --> 00:42:07,790 worked at the Hayden Planetarium and he 876 00:42:13,780 --> 00:42:09,859 was the original investigator on the 877 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:13,790 case he did take a picture during his 878 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:15,170 investigation 879 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:17,090 barney standing in the close encounter 880 00:42:23,770 --> 00:42:19,970 field holding binoculars up to his eyes 881 00:42:25,750 --> 00:42:23,780 looking up at that craft well you have 882 00:42:29,260 --> 00:42:25,760 to imagine the craft being there and 883 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:29,270 based upon what barney described but 884 00:42:34,030 --> 00:42:31,370 Barney was standing in the field with 885 00:42:36,060 --> 00:42:34,040 the binoculars posing in the position 886 00:42:39,130 --> 00:42:36,070 where he was standing for Walter Webb 887 00:42:41,890 --> 00:42:39,140 okay the part where they went down Mill 888 00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:41,900 Brook Road you said something about that 889 00:42:46,870 --> 00:42:43,730 being a recovered memory after that 890 00:42:51,820 --> 00:42:46,880 point where they stopped after that 891 00:42:53,500 --> 00:42:51,830 point they they did not consciously they 892 00:42:56,770 --> 00:42:53,510 knew that they'd gone onto a dirt road 893 00:43:00,070 --> 00:42:56,780 they looked for that dirt road they 894 00:43:02,770 --> 00:43:00,080 started looking in the fall after the 895 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:02,780 encounter they looked they looked they 896 00:43:08,050 --> 00:43:05,050 looked they underwent hypnosis and 897 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:08,060 finally they ended up finding the 898 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:10,130 location but it took quite a long time 899 00:43:17,290 --> 00:43:15,010 for them to to find that location and 900 00:43:25,930 --> 00:43:17,300 what was it that they remembered under 901 00:43:29,140 --> 00:43:25,940 hypnosis well yeah under hypnosis they 902 00:43:32,740 --> 00:43:29,150 recalled that they were seated in the 903 00:43:35,950 --> 00:43:32,750 car the motor had died there were 904 00:43:38,980 --> 00:43:35,960 figures ahead they were talking to each 905 00:43:42,210 --> 00:43:38,990 other they which is different from what 906 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:42,220 was in Betty's dreams I might say and 907 00:43:47,170 --> 00:43:45,170 Betty said what do you think it is is 908 00:43:50,050 --> 00:43:47,180 there an accident ahead are we being 909 00:43:54,220 --> 00:43:50,060 robbed what's going on here and Barney 910 00:43:57,790 --> 00:43:54,230 said as they started to approach it's 911 00:43:59,590 --> 00:43:57,800 them it's the ones I saw when I was 912 00:44:02,410 --> 00:43:59,600 looking standing in the field looking 913 00:44:04,330 --> 00:44:02,420 through binoculars at that craft and 914 00:44:08,380 --> 00:44:04,340 that part is recovered memory is that 915 00:44:09,970 --> 00:44:08,390 right that yes that part is recovered 916 00:44:12,150 --> 00:44:09,980 memory where they were sitting in the 917 00:44:15,940 --> 00:44:12,160 car talking to each other they did not 918 00:44:17,830 --> 00:44:15,950 remember that part of it okay I'd like 919 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:17,840 to suggest that the reason they didn't 920 00:44:25,270 --> 00:44:20,330 remember it was because it didn't really 921 00:44:27,340 --> 00:44:25,280 in actual fact happen okay I'm going to 922 00:44:28,539 --> 00:44:27,350 suggest that they have confused memories 923 00:44:35,109 --> 00:44:28,549 of the 924 00:44:36,759 --> 00:44:35,119 O'Lantern the point where their 925 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:36,769 headlights swung across the Jack 926 00:44:40,209 --> 00:44:39,650 O'Lanterns billboard just visible for a 927 00:44:46,479 --> 00:44:40,219 second 928 00:44:49,029 --> 00:44:46,489 was a memory that the next day they had 929 00:44:50,259 --> 00:44:49,039 you can you can bring back memories in a 930 00:44:53,469 --> 00:44:50,269 lot of different ways you can change 931 00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:53,479 memories change my memory is easy and 932 00:44:58,870 --> 00:44:57,170 we're very well-versed on hypnosis all 933 00:45:02,559 --> 00:44:58,880 of the academic studies that have been 934 00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:02,569 done and I've even become certified so 935 00:45:10,380 --> 00:45:06,130 that I would be completely rounded in 936 00:45:14,650 --> 00:45:10,390 the use of and misuse of hypnosis and 937 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:14,660 the weaknesses of the hypnosis that is 938 00:45:20,049 --> 00:45:18,170 why I ended up doing a comparative 939 00:45:22,989 --> 00:45:20,059 analysis of betty's and Barney's 940 00:45:26,319 --> 00:45:22,999 statements under hypnosis in order to 941 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:26,329 determine whether or not these memories 942 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:29,170 that came out under separate hypnosis 943 00:45:38,079 --> 00:45:33,410 separate sessions with dr. Simon where 944 00:45:41,169 --> 00:45:38,089 he instilled amnesia and at the end of 945 00:45:43,779 --> 00:45:41,179 each session for two reasons one so that 946 00:45:47,079 --> 00:45:43,789 they could not compare notes the other 947 00:45:50,469 --> 00:45:47,089 because some of what came out was so 948 00:45:52,809 --> 00:45:50,479 traumatic that today could become 949 00:45:55,390 --> 00:45:52,819 psychologically damaged by remembering 950 00:45:59,199 --> 00:45:55,400 it all at once so those were the two 951 00:46:00,609 --> 00:45:59,209 reasons okay with all respect ma'am I 952 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:00,619 don't believe that you're exactly an 953 00:46:06,479 --> 00:46:04,249 unbiased expert in this case I think 954 00:46:09,039 --> 00:46:06,489 that the fact that you are Betty's niece 955 00:46:13,390 --> 00:46:09,049 gives you a certain predisposition to 956 00:46:18,339 --> 00:46:13,400 believe the literal fact of this 957 00:46:20,529 --> 00:46:18,349 abduction may I refer to a paper I've 958 00:46:23,999 --> 00:46:20,539 got here called hypnosis in the criminal 959 00:46:28,509 --> 00:46:24,009 case facts and fallacies Phil asiimov 960 00:46:32,469 --> 00:46:28,519 ajd MD in Thomas H jobim MD I I'm sure 961 00:46:35,529 --> 00:46:32,479 you can find it it's easy enough where 962 00:46:37,299 --> 00:46:35,539 we read an essential distinction exists 963 00:46:39,279 --> 00:46:37,309 between the psychological therapies and 964 00:46:40,449 --> 00:46:39,289 criminal prosecutions the distinction 965 00:46:42,190 --> 00:46:40,459 which must be understood before 966 00:46:45,370 --> 00:46:42,200 meaningful guidelines permissibility 967 00:46:47,170 --> 00:46:45,380 to establish the historical accuracy of 968 00:46:49,510 --> 00:46:47,180 a person's recollection isn't crucial as 969 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:49,520 evidence in a criminal case but accuracy 970 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:51,130 is not crucial to the course of therapy 971 00:46:56,950 --> 00:46:52,970 remember that Betty and Bernie were 972 00:46:58,930 --> 00:46:56,960 there for therapy not to create any kind 973 00:47:01,359 --> 00:46:58,940 of legal case moving back to the paper 974 00:47:03,130 --> 00:47:01,369 the psychodynamic nificant of the 975 00:47:05,620 --> 00:47:03,140 material is more important than therapy 976 00:47:07,329 --> 00:47:05,630 and as correspondence to reality this 977 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:07,339 distinction raises an important concern 978 00:47:12,490 --> 00:47:09,290 is information obtained through the 979 00:47:14,620 --> 00:47:12,500 anodic process reliable both 980 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:14,630 experimental and clinical findings point 981 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:16,490 Tiffa conclusion that hypnotic recall 982 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:18,530 cannot be considered like considered 983 00:47:23,740 --> 00:47:20,810 factually accurate I'll give you that 984 00:47:26,700 --> 00:47:23,750 Jim and I'm speaking as a retired 985 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:26,710 policeman but also as a reformed lawyer 986 00:47:37,930 --> 00:47:30,290 yeah hypnosis has not reached the extent 987 00:47:41,230 --> 00:47:37,940 acceptable stage of proof and I agree 988 00:47:43,810 --> 00:47:41,240 with that I agree that with that as well 989 00:47:47,380 --> 00:47:43,820 and I have studied forensic hypnosis 990 00:47:49,630 --> 00:47:47,390 which at one point in our history was 991 00:47:51,910 --> 00:47:49,640 admissible as evidence in a court of law 992 00:47:55,540 --> 00:47:51,920 but then that ended up being thrown out 993 00:47:58,150 --> 00:47:55,550 as well so I am aware of that and that 994 00:48:00,130 --> 00:47:58,160 was the reason for my comparative 995 00:48:03,910 --> 00:48:00,140 analysis of Betty's and Barney's 996 00:48:08,700 --> 00:48:03,920 separate statements you mentioned that I 997 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:08,710 am biased well when I began this study I 998 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:12,890 did it in an unbiased very careful 999 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:17,650 manner and I asked Stanton Friedman to 1000 00:48:25,690 --> 00:48:21,530 review everything that I had written all 1001 00:48:28,809 --> 00:48:25,700 of the opinions that I had formed in 1002 00:48:31,809 --> 00:48:28,819 order to determine whether or not what I 1003 00:48:36,309 --> 00:48:31,819 was saying was accurate and unbiased and 1004 00:48:41,370 --> 00:48:36,319 he was impressed by the fact that I was 1005 00:48:47,500 --> 00:48:43,930 Stanton Friedman can you describe what 1006 00:48:50,950 --> 00:48:47,510 his background is yes his background is 1007 00:48:52,980 --> 00:48:50,960 as a nuclear physicist he has master's 1008 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:52,990 degree from the University of Chicago 1009 00:48:59,800 --> 00:48:55,850 okay but what is his background as 1010 00:49:05,250 --> 00:48:59,810 for as UFOs mall he is the original 1011 00:49:10,540 --> 00:49:05,260 civilian Roswell researcher he was also 1012 00:49:14,070 --> 00:49:10,550 an investigator in the hill case does he 1013 00:49:18,750 --> 00:49:14,080 fall more on the true believers side no 1014 00:49:22,390 --> 00:49:18,760 now he falls more on the scientists side 1015 00:49:27,130 --> 00:49:22,400 not a true believer a true believer will 1016 00:49:31,810 --> 00:49:27,140 believe anything he is very very 1017 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:31,820 carefully studies the evidence he 1018 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:34,690 specializes in government documents 1019 00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:38,090 we've been to archival collections 1020 00:49:47,470 --> 00:49:44,920 pardon me is your co-author right yes 1021 00:49:51,580 --> 00:49:47,480 he's my co-author you wrote two chapters 1022 00:49:53,380 --> 00:49:51,590 in captured you mentioned it the you 1023 00:49:55,030 --> 00:49:53,390 mentioned physical evidence and that's 1024 00:49:58,270 --> 00:49:55,040 something I think that that I think 1025 00:50:00,310 --> 00:49:58,280 might be helpful to to you and a Jim can 1026 00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:00,320 you tell us will you tell the listeners 1027 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:04,130 what physical evidence if any had been 1028 00:50:10,630 --> 00:50:07,370 recovered as a result of this incident 1029 00:50:12,820 --> 00:50:10,640 and what analysis have been performed on 1030 00:50:15,310 --> 00:50:12,830 it and perhaps share that with Jim and 1031 00:50:18,070 --> 00:50:15,320 perhaps if Jim has a the opportunity to 1032 00:50:21,670 --> 00:50:18,080 make some comments on that as to whether 1033 00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:21,680 or not the evidence goes to prove any 1034 00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:26,090 any point of the the experience yes 1035 00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:28,610 there was evidence on Betty's dress when 1036 00:50:33,550 --> 00:50:31,730 she arrived home it had been in fine 1037 00:50:36,730 --> 00:50:33,560 condition when she put it on that 1038 00:50:40,590 --> 00:50:36,740 morning when she arrived home there was 1039 00:50:44,230 --> 00:50:40,600 a 2-inch tear in the stitching at the 1040 00:50:45,070 --> 00:50:44,240 top of her zipper which went down the 1041 00:50:47,890 --> 00:50:45,080 back of her dress 1042 00:50:51,340 --> 00:50:47,900 there was a one-inch tear in the thick 1043 00:50:54,220 --> 00:50:51,350 zipper fabric the lining of her dress 1044 00:50:57,880 --> 00:50:54,230 was torn from waist to hemline and the 1045 00:51:00,670 --> 00:50:57,890 hem was torn down on one side she could 1046 00:51:03,460 --> 00:51:00,680 think of no prosaic explanation for how 1047 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:03,470 that had occurred she placed the dress 1048 00:51:08,590 --> 00:51:06,050 in her closet and the next time she 1049 00:51:10,780 --> 00:51:08,600 removed it it was covered with a pink 1050 00:51:13,660 --> 00:51:10,790 powdery sub 1051 00:51:19,110 --> 00:51:13,670 that dress has undergone scientific 1052 00:51:24,490 --> 00:51:22,750 those analyses one well at the 1053 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:24,500 University of Cincinnati 1054 00:51:29,310 --> 00:51:27,170 they said that the pink powder was 1055 00:51:32,470 --> 00:51:29,320 strained in relation to the inorganic 1056 00:51:36,130 --> 00:51:32,480 elemental compound and that it was high 1057 00:51:39,070 --> 00:51:36,140 in organic hydrocarbons the Pine land 1058 00:51:43,450 --> 00:51:39,080 Abhisek biophysics laboratory did a 1059 00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:43,460 bioassay test and that was seedling 1060 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:47,930 growth rate and they found that the 1061 00:51:52,750 --> 00:51:50,690 seedlings that were watered with part of 1062 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:52,760 the dress that was coated with this pink 1063 00:51:57,760 --> 00:51:55,010 powdery substance grew at an 1064 00:51:59,500 --> 00:51:57,770 extraordinarily fast rate and they wrote 1065 00:52:03,370 --> 00:51:59,510 in the report that this was highly 1066 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:03,380 unusual on the frontier analysis 1067 00:52:12,300 --> 00:52:07,010 laboratory stated that the chemical 1068 00:52:17,070 --> 00:52:14,800 what happened to the dress the stained 1069 00:52:19,810 --> 00:52:17,080 areas were coated with a biological 1070 00:52:22,420 --> 00:52:19,820 material of mostly protein and a small 1071 00:52:24,820 --> 00:52:22,430 amount of natural oil the protein 1072 00:52:26,950 --> 00:52:24,830 attacked the fiber and died and the 1073 00:52:29,740 --> 00:52:26,960 stained areas and broke down the fiber 1074 00:52:33,370 --> 00:52:29,750 structure and it came from an external 1075 00:52:35,020 --> 00:52:33,380 source not from Betty this okay she 1076 00:52:37,630 --> 00:52:35,030 didn't throw this dress in the trash at 1077 00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:37,640 any point did she because I believe at 1078 00:52:47,620 --> 00:52:43,370 least she put it in and then she took it 1079 00:52:50,650 --> 00:52:47,630 out immediately thinking that she should 1080 00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:50,660 save it in case it held a clue to what 1081 00:52:55,980 --> 00:52:54,410 had happened okay I have read I have no 1082 00:52:58,870 --> 00:52:55,990 idea if this is true you can correct me 1083 00:53:00,520 --> 00:52:58,880 that the pink powdery substance showed 1084 00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:00,530 up after the dress had been in her 1085 00:53:07,330 --> 00:53:03,370 closet for forty years is that correct 1086 00:53:11,290 --> 00:53:07,340 no that's not true okay how long had it 1087 00:53:16,090 --> 00:53:11,300 been in her closet she wasn't she wasn't 1088 00:53:18,970 --> 00:53:16,100 sure when she actually took it out some 1089 00:53:23,470 --> 00:53:18,980 reports said that it was within a very 1090 00:53:27,060 --> 00:53:23,480 brief period of time I wrote in the book 1091 00:53:30,700 --> 00:53:27,070 best that I could determine she found it 1092 00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:30,710 on there when she was seeing dr. Simon a 1093 00:53:36,130 --> 00:53:33,770 couple of years later okay 1094 00:53:38,830 --> 00:53:36,140 because I've got a leather man you know 1095 00:53:42,220 --> 00:53:38,840 the little pocket tools and I've left it 1096 00:53:45,130 --> 00:53:42,230 in its in its case in a shoebox in the 1097 00:53:47,310 --> 00:53:45,140 garage and a year later it had a fine 1098 00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:47,320 white powder all over it 1099 00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:52,570 just saying well we tell you that the 1100 00:53:58,750 --> 00:53:55,690 scientist one of the scientists who 1101 00:54:01,720 --> 00:53:58,760 evaluated Betty's dress had her own 1102 00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:01,730 dress that was made of the same fabric 1103 00:54:08,170 --> 00:54:05,810 and it was had been in her closet for as 1104 00:54:13,630 --> 00:54:08,180 many years as Betty's dress had been in 1105 00:54:16,450 --> 00:54:13,640 the closet and it did not have any of 1106 00:54:20,099 --> 00:54:16,460 the characteristics that Betty's dress 1107 00:54:22,750 --> 00:54:20,109 yet yeah but it wasn't in Betty's closet 1108 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:22,760 so that's really not a good committee it 1109 00:54:30,490 --> 00:54:25,010 was it was in a different closet but it 1110 00:54:32,859 --> 00:54:30,500 was the same climate okay and I chose 1111 00:54:35,620 --> 00:54:32,869 that the most important thing to me here 1112 00:54:37,810 --> 00:54:35,630 is the forensic evidence of the tears in 1113 00:54:40,810 --> 00:54:37,820 the dress I don't care about what that 1114 00:54:44,430 --> 00:54:40,820 pink powder was as far as I know it was 1115 00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:44,440 mung fungus it was it could have been 1116 00:54:50,650 --> 00:54:48,650 awful lot like mold to me yes well it 1117 00:54:53,710 --> 00:54:50,660 could have been fungus that could have 1118 00:54:58,840 --> 00:54:53,720 been oh I'm trying to think of what it's 1119 00:55:01,660 --> 00:54:58,850 called yeast it could have been it 1120 00:55:04,300 --> 00:55:01,670 blowed under it glowed its florists 1121 00:55:09,940 --> 00:55:04,310 under a blacklight for under a UV light 1122 00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:09,950 yeah so does Alice yeah so but those the 1123 00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:12,890 five chemical analyses that were done on 1124 00:55:20,140 --> 00:55:15,170 that dress said that it was highly 1125 00:55:24,370 --> 00:55:20,150 unusual okay get on to another another 1126 00:55:26,950 --> 00:55:24,380 piece of evidence the alien symbols that 1127 00:55:30,630 --> 00:55:26,960 Betty claimed that she saw when she was 1128 00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:33,670 yes that was recovered memory okay and 1129 00:55:37,750 --> 00:55:36,890 in the year 2000 she sketched those 1130 00:55:41,230 --> 00:55:37,760 symbol 1131 00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:41,240 for me from memory and I published them 1132 00:55:47,890 --> 00:55:44,570 in captured and doctored on seed on 1133 00:55:52,390 --> 00:55:47,900 dairy who was a psychology professor at 1134 00:55:56,530 --> 00:55:52,400 McGill University in 2004 did a simple 1135 00:55:59,730 --> 00:55:56,540 study and what he did is he had symbols 1136 00:56:02,620 --> 00:55:59,740 that were sketched by several 1137 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:02,630 experiencers who had gone to see the 1138 00:56:07,990 --> 00:56:05,810 late researcher but Hopkins and they had 1139 00:56:10,740 --> 00:56:08,000 sketched these symbols that they had 1140 00:56:16,720 --> 00:56:10,750 observed on craft under hypnosis and 1141 00:56:18,820 --> 00:56:16,730 then they photocopied those all under 1142 00:56:21,670 --> 00:56:18,830 the same papers they had two groups of 1143 00:56:23,740 --> 00:56:21,680 graduate students one was told to 1144 00:56:26,349 --> 00:56:23,750 imagine what alien symbols would look 1145 00:56:28,420 --> 00:56:26,359 like and to sketch them the other group 1146 00:56:30,190 --> 00:56:28,430 of graduate students was hypnotized and 1147 00:56:33,130 --> 00:56:30,200 the suggestion was given that they were 1148 00:56:38,339 --> 00:56:33,140 on an alien craft and saw symbols well 1149 00:56:43,210 --> 00:56:38,349 in the end they found that these symbols 1150 00:56:47,859 --> 00:56:43,220 from Budd Hopkins experiencers were very 1151 00:56:51,550 --> 00:56:47,869 very much alike and dr. Don Derry 1152 00:56:54,609 --> 00:56:51,560 then took the symbols that Betty had 1153 00:56:56,890 --> 00:56:54,619 sketched and he stated the symbols Betty 1154 00:57:00,130 --> 00:56:56,900 remembered and that were published for 1155 00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:00,140 the first time in 2007 looked remarkably 1156 00:57:10,349 --> 00:57:02,810 like many of the symbols that Hopkins 1157 00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:10,359 had been collecting since 1975 how weird 1158 00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:13,130 yes okay I'm going to say that anything 1159 00:57:20,410 --> 00:57:15,650 recovered under hypnosis can be safely 1160 00:57:22,359 --> 00:57:20,420 ignored well you know hypnosis and I 1161 00:57:25,180 --> 00:57:22,369 wrote about this in my book has been 1162 00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:25,190 used very very effectively for a number 1163 00:57:32,260 --> 00:57:29,450 of things so you of course it is 1164 00:57:35,260 --> 00:57:32,270 possible for people to confabulate we 1165 00:57:39,700 --> 00:57:35,270 all know that but it has been used very 1166 00:57:45,099 --> 00:57:39,710 successfully as well and and not just 1167 00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:45,109 for therapy but for memory retrieval yes 1168 00:57:50,470 --> 00:57:47,570 and in those cases correct me if I'm 1169 00:57:51,310 --> 00:57:50,480 wrong but the testimony of those 1170 00:57:53,860 --> 00:57:51,320 individuals 1171 00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:53,870 is no longer admissible now the police 1172 00:57:58,810 --> 00:57:56,690 may use recover a license-plate number 1173 00:58:02,200 --> 00:57:58,820 but then they must use other 1174 00:58:05,290 --> 00:58:02,210 investigative techniques to bring that 1175 00:58:08,110 --> 00:58:05,300 into court yes you are correct and 1176 00:58:10,270 --> 00:58:08,120 that's why I have always stated that I 1177 00:58:13,350 --> 00:58:10,280 think that the emphasis on this case 1178 00:58:16,570 --> 00:58:13,360 should be placed upon their conscious 1179 00:58:19,450 --> 00:58:16,580 continuous recall of what occurred and 1180 00:58:24,100 --> 00:58:19,460 less emphasis placed upon what they said 1181 00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:24,110 under hypnosis except for those that I 1182 00:58:29,500 --> 00:58:26,930 have where I have done comparative 1183 00:58:33,300 --> 00:58:29,510 analysis of their statements and they 1184 00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:33,310 were the same but they were different 1185 00:58:40,090 --> 00:58:37,490 from what Betty had written in about the 1186 00:58:42,730 --> 00:58:40,100 dreams that she had which were another 1187 00:58:45,910 --> 00:58:42,740 thing that that came in and and you know 1188 00:58:50,110 --> 00:58:45,920 was Betty simply reliving a series of 1189 00:58:52,930 --> 00:58:50,120 dreams she had under hypnosis and so it 1190 00:58:55,420 --> 00:58:52,940 becomes very very complicated as we get 1191 00:58:57,910 --> 00:58:55,430 into the study of all of this and that's 1192 00:59:01,030 --> 00:58:57,920 why it's so important to very very 1193 00:59:03,700 --> 00:59:01,040 carefully look at every little piece of 1194 00:59:06,730 --> 00:59:03,710 evidence and does it hold it up and 1195 00:59:10,780 --> 00:59:06,740 scrutiny or do you have to throw that 1196 00:59:12,610 --> 00:59:10,790 out as not holding up and and I wrote 1197 00:59:15,250 --> 00:59:12,620 about that and captured and I wrote 1198 00:59:19,110 --> 00:59:15,260 about the information that really did 1199 00:59:22,420 --> 00:59:19,120 not hold up under scrutiny as well Kathy 1200 00:59:24,460 --> 00:59:22,430 I'm gonna have to say good night because 1201 00:59:27,490 --> 00:59:24,470 I'm gonna let other callers call them 1202 00:59:30,190 --> 00:59:27,500 okay but I really think she ate it and 1203 00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:30,200 do you have any parting words either one 1204 00:59:37,420 --> 00:59:35,090 of you well I would be very happy to 1205 00:59:39,310 --> 00:59:37,430 send some of this information to Jim if 1206 00:59:41,310 --> 00:59:39,320 he would like to have it if he'd like to 1207 00:59:46,150 --> 00:59:41,320 have copies of those documents and 1208 00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:46,160 perhaps that would help to help him to 1209 00:59:54,370 --> 00:59:51,410 determine what happened and when well I 1210 00:59:56,890 --> 00:59:54,380 am NOT a UFO researcher I'm not a Betty 1211 01:00:01,290 --> 00:59:56,900 and Barney Hill expert I have no opinion 1212 01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:01,300 about any other event any other 1213 01:00:05,140 --> 01:00:04,130 abductions what may have you all I know 1214 01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:05,150 is that what I 1215 01:00:10,299 --> 01:00:07,490 personally can observe driving down 1216 01:00:13,450 --> 01:00:10,309 route 3 the light on Cannon Mountain 1217 01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:13,460 exactly matches the movement of the UFO 1218 01:00:17,349 --> 01:00:15,490 as described in interrupted journey 1219 01:00:20,410 --> 01:00:17,359 that's what I'm saying 1220 01:00:22,500 --> 01:00:20,420 and when you say that the craft was 1221 01:00:26,019 --> 01:00:22,510 lighted on top and dark on the bottom 1222 01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:26,029 the light back in 61 on the observation 1223 01:00:30,309 --> 01:00:28,010 tower at fire Watchtower on Cannon 1224 01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:30,319 Mountain was above the roof and it 1225 01:00:39,809 --> 01:00:31,970 illuminated the top of the roof and the 1226 01:00:42,220 --> 01:00:39,819 bottom was in shadow fact you know I 1227 01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:42,230 didn't say it was light on the top and 1228 01:00:48,130 --> 01:00:44,450 dark on the bottom I did say that it was 1229 01:00:52,029 --> 01:00:48,140 rotating and it was hovering beside the 1230 01:00:58,059 --> 01:00:52,039 old man's profile before it travelled 1231 01:01:01,000 --> 01:00:58,069 itself into Lincoln south of a mile 1232 01:01:06,730 --> 01:01:01,010 south of Indian Head I do believe those 1233 01:01:08,829 --> 01:01:06,740 memories are false memories well they 1234 01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:08,839 knew them the next day they do the 1235 01:01:14,140 --> 01:01:11,210 minute I thought about they knew them 1236 01:01:18,099 --> 01:01:14,150 the next day they they never forgot 1237 01:01:20,740 --> 01:01:18,109 about them and I have faith in human 1238 01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:20,750 beings that they can remember from one 1239 01:01:28,559 --> 01:01:24,650 evening to the next morning what had 1240 01:01:31,990 --> 01:01:28,569 happened to them when they had not slept 1241 01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:32,000 though those memories are continuous 1242 01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:34,250 their conscious memories and I think 1243 01:01:38,559 --> 01:01:36,770 it's really important so I'm going to 1244 01:01:40,359 --> 01:01:38,569 hang up and I will listen to the next 1245 01:01:42,269 --> 01:01:40,369 caller thank you all right thanks a lot 1246 01:01:45,460 --> 01:01:42,279 coffee take care of it 1247 01:01:49,829 --> 01:01:45,470 all right so the line is open if anyone 1248 01:01:56,380 --> 01:01:49,839 else would like to call in that's 603 1249 01:02:00,029 --> 01:01:56,390 967 403 Oh have Jim have you ulis 1250 01:02:04,299 --> 01:02:00,039 actually listened to the recordings of 1251 01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:04,309 dr. Simon's hypnosis 1252 01:02:08,470 --> 01:02:06,170 have you listened to no I am NOT yeah I 1253 01:02:11,559 --> 01:02:08,480 have not listened to the recordings all 1254 01:02:16,029 --> 01:02:11,569 I know is what's in Fuller's book okay 1255 01:02:18,350 --> 01:02:16,039 yeah and let me talk about memories 1256 01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:18,360 continuous memories and like that 1257 01:02:21,830 --> 01:02:20,370 as has been mentioned I'm in addition to 1258 01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:21,840 everything else I'm a professional 1259 01:02:26,990 --> 01:02:24,570 magician and sometimes I'll show a trick 1260 01:02:29,690 --> 01:02:27,000 to somebody and then I will listen as 1261 01:02:32,570 --> 01:02:29,700 they describe that that trick to a third 1262 01:02:34,910 --> 01:02:32,580 person and I said to myself darn I wish 1263 01:02:38,690 --> 01:02:34,920 I'd done that one instead it's a cool 1264 01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:38,700 one um every common phenomena and human 1265 01:02:42,530 --> 01:02:40,770 nature very common phenomena comes up in 1266 01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:42,540 investigations you could have one 1267 01:02:46,730 --> 01:02:44,370 incident we have four witnesses and you 1268 01:02:49,250 --> 01:02:46,740 will get four different versions of the 1269 01:02:53,050 --> 01:02:49,260 truth all right yeah we have someone 1270 01:02:57,950 --> 01:02:53,060 calling in hang on just a minute okay 1271 01:02:59,660 --> 01:02:57,960 hello caller can you hear me yes hi 1272 01:03:04,270 --> 01:02:59,670 caller and your first name where you 1273 01:03:10,250 --> 01:03:04,280 calling from my name is Elliott hey hi 1274 01:03:13,490 --> 01:03:10,260 I'm calling from Jupiter I think you're 1275 01:03:17,750 --> 01:03:13,500 our first call tonight from Jupiter well 1276 01:03:20,300 --> 01:03:17,760 and probably your last yeah so do you 1277 01:03:26,030 --> 01:03:20,310 have you have a question for our guest 1278 01:03:29,900 --> 01:03:26,040 I do actually yes yeah go ahead far away 1279 01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:29,910 Oh Jim hi how you doing tonight oh good 1280 01:03:36,230 --> 01:03:33,810 great I I'm very happy to hear that you 1281 01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:36,240 that you actually admitted that you're 1282 01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:38,130 not a UFO researcher you you haven't 1283 01:03:42,710 --> 01:03:40,650 really investigated the Betty and Barney 1284 01:03:44,540 --> 01:03:42,720 Hill case and that you that there are 1285 01:03:46,940 --> 01:03:44,550 specific things about it that just don't 1286 01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:46,950 seem right to you in terms of 1287 01:03:52,460 --> 01:03:51,330 credibility and I would ask you I've 1288 01:03:57,200 --> 01:03:52,470 been listening to this conversation 1289 01:03:59,150 --> 01:03:57,210 tonight and it just seems like there's 1290 01:04:02,330 --> 01:03:59,160 been almost too much nitpicking about 1291 01:04:05,690 --> 01:04:02,340 things that aren't important and I don't 1292 01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:05,700 think the listening audience is being 1293 01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:08,250 well served because they want to get 1294 01:04:13,430 --> 01:04:11,490 more factual information I just you know 1295 01:04:15,860 --> 01:04:13,440 I've been fascinated with the Barney and 1296 01:04:18,140 --> 01:04:15,870 Betty hill case for over 50 years when 1297 01:04:21,620 --> 01:04:18,150 the public first became aware of their 1298 01:04:24,050 --> 01:04:21,630 story in the mid 1960s I was living in 1299 01:04:28,370 --> 01:04:24,060 New Hampshire that's where I grew up and 1300 01:04:31,070 --> 01:04:28,380 in 1967 I began my studies at Plymouth 1301 01:04:32,270 --> 01:04:31,080 State College just a few miles south of 1302 01:04:39,500 --> 01:04:32,280 where the hills had their 1303 01:04:41,750 --> 01:04:39,510 experience in 1961 yes well so yeah 1304 01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:41,760 Plymouth State that's right and and so 1305 01:04:49,730 --> 01:04:46,170 my my question to you Jim is have you 1306 01:04:54,740 --> 01:04:49,740 actually spent a lot of time doing some 1307 01:04:57,190 --> 01:04:54,750 really solid legwork into this case 1308 01:04:59,930 --> 01:04:57,200 especially the project Bluebook 1309 01:05:01,520 --> 01:04:59,940 information and investigation of this 1310 01:05:04,070 --> 01:05:01,530 case I'm really curious about whether 1311 01:05:11,030 --> 01:05:04,080 you've done that or not well 1312 01:05:13,460 --> 01:05:11,040 no I'm not interested in proving or 1313 01:05:16,250 --> 01:05:13,470 debunking anything I'm saying that I've 1314 01:05:18,890 --> 01:05:16,260 got an alternative hypothesis which 1315 01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:18,900 mates which matches all the known facts 1316 01:05:27,500 --> 01:05:23,930 and which does not involve space aliens 1317 01:05:29,990 --> 01:05:27,510 okay well I'm not one to even say that 1318 01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:30,000 it's space aliens I frankly as 1319 01:05:34,010 --> 01:05:32,250 interested as I am in UFOs 1320 01:05:35,090 --> 01:05:34,020 I don't care where they come from if 1321 01:05:37,790 --> 01:05:35,100 we're talking about the truly 1322 01:05:39,650 --> 01:05:37,800 unexplained ones I don't care whether 1323 01:05:42,710 --> 01:05:39,660 they come from Alpha Centauri or another 1324 01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:42,720 dimension or underground I don't care 1325 01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:46,170 I'm just convinced after many years of 1326 01:05:49,340 --> 01:05:47,610 looking into this myself 1327 01:05:52,250 --> 01:05:49,350 that there's something really odd 1328 01:05:55,430 --> 01:05:52,260 unusual going on in the skies around our 1329 01:05:58,100 --> 01:05:55,440 planet and that there's enough credible 1330 01:06:00,920 --> 01:05:58,110 evidence to point to that and science is 1331 01:06:03,020 --> 01:06:00,930 starting to be aware of that but the 1332 01:06:07,700 --> 01:06:03,030 thing I really want to focus in on Jim 1333 01:06:10,070 --> 01:06:07,710 is the radar tracking of the UFO that 1334 01:06:11,750 --> 01:06:10,080 night in the White Mountains forget 1335 01:06:12,860 --> 01:06:11,760 about the Cannon Mountain stuff in this 1336 01:06:16,190 --> 01:06:12,870 thing and the old man in the mountain 1337 01:06:20,810 --> 01:06:16,200 I'm talking about something that that's 1338 01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:20,820 tangible evidence okay and and there was 1339 01:06:26,900 --> 01:06:23,370 more than one radar tracking from two 1340 01:06:29,630 --> 01:06:26,910 different military installations one in 1341 01:06:35,330 --> 01:06:29,640 Vermont and one in New Hampshire this is 1342 01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:35,340 this is factual okay okay good okay 1343 01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:37,170 stop me if I'm wrong about this because 1344 01:06:41,270 --> 01:06:39,330 you're sure you've looked into it far 1345 01:06:43,970 --> 01:06:41,280 more than I have but the first one was 1346 01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:43,980 at 5:30 p.m. when Betty and Barney were 1347 01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:45,690 still sightseeing in Montreal is that 1348 01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:46,170 correct 1349 01:06:52,490 --> 01:06:49,170 well I all sorted that the timing I do 1350 01:06:54,589 --> 01:06:52,500 know that according to to one report and 1351 01:06:59,210 --> 01:06:54,599 this was a research paper that was made 1352 01:07:00,980 --> 01:06:59,220 by the Air Force in fact that there was 1353 01:07:03,410 --> 01:07:00,990 they were officially they were two 1354 01:07:07,190 --> 01:07:03,420 separate sightings and that they were on 1355 01:07:10,789 --> 01:07:07,200 radar one of them was seen a track in 1356 01:07:15,620 --> 01:07:10,799 the radar installation in Vermont it was 1357 01:07:18,380 --> 01:07:15,630 like seven hours prior to the hills 1358 01:07:20,569 --> 01:07:18,390 response or the experience and then the 1359 01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:20,579 second radar tracking was two hours 1360 01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:23,490 after their experience from Pease Air 1361 01:07:28,220 --> 01:07:26,490 Force Base in New Hampshire so so that 1362 01:07:33,079 --> 01:07:28,230 but and and there's weird things that 1363 01:07:37,670 --> 01:07:33,089 happen about where those radar reports 1364 01:07:41,210 --> 01:07:37,680 went through and the like the the hill 1365 01:07:42,950 --> 01:07:41,220 story that you probably know was it was 1366 01:07:45,980 --> 01:07:42,960 included in the Air Force's Project Blue 1367 01:07:49,609 --> 01:07:45,990 Book UFO FILES sure and and it included 1368 01:07:51,529 --> 01:07:49,619 a reference to a radar tracking and I'm 1369 01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:51,539 not sure if you know this or if the 1370 01:07:54,740 --> 01:07:53,130 listeners don't know this but I can also 1371 01:07:56,539 --> 01:07:54,750 kind of put all of you on the right path 1372 01:07:58,099 --> 01:07:56,549 do you want to kind of look into this 1373 01:08:03,109 --> 01:07:58,109 yourself but this is really amazing 1374 01:08:05,660 --> 01:08:03,119 reading in 1974 a research paper was 1375 01:08:08,109 --> 01:08:05,670 written by Air Force officers and they 1376 01:08:11,450 --> 01:08:08,119 submitted it to a thing called air 1377 01:08:14,839 --> 01:08:11,460 university at Maxwell Air Force Base in 1378 01:08:17,030 --> 01:08:14,849 Alabama and the paper was titled should 1379 01:08:20,059 --> 01:08:17,040 the United States Air Force reopen 1380 01:08:22,340 --> 01:08:20,069 Project Blue Book and that paper was 1381 01:08:25,399 --> 01:08:22,350 written just five years after they 1382 01:08:28,070 --> 01:08:25,409 closed Project Blue Book in 1969 and 1383 01:08:30,379 --> 01:08:28,080 there were two Air Force writers that 1384 01:08:33,860 --> 01:08:30,389 were involved with this research one of 1385 01:08:36,229 --> 01:08:33,870 them evaluated evidence that justified 1386 01:08:38,539 --> 01:08:36,239 closing Project Blue Book and the other 1387 01:08:41,300 --> 01:08:38,549 officer looked at evidence that would 1388 01:08:45,340 --> 01:08:41,310 support reopening a new investigation 1389 01:08:48,289 --> 01:08:45,350 and their extensive story or their study 1390 01:08:50,629 --> 01:08:48,299 concluded that a new UFO investigation 1391 01:08:55,329 --> 01:08:50,639 was necessary and it should be handled 1392 01:08:58,700 --> 01:08:55,339 by science and not military well and so 1393 01:08:59,720 --> 01:08:58,710 with and within the pages of the report 1394 01:09:01,370 --> 01:08:59,730 and I know 1395 01:09:03,350 --> 01:09:01,380 only because I went out and I found the 1396 01:09:05,360 --> 01:09:03,360 report that's and and I will let people 1397 01:09:08,390 --> 01:09:05,370 know where anybody can go and see this 1398 01:09:11,870 --> 01:09:08,400 within the pages of this was a detailed 1399 01:09:15,980 --> 01:09:11,880 account of the hill encounter in 61 and 1400 01:09:17,780 --> 01:09:15,990 and I would like to if I can Martin I'd 1401 01:09:20,660 --> 01:09:17,790 like to just read that one little quote 1402 01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:20,670 from from this report okay 1403 01:09:27,050 --> 01:09:24,650 and it's pretty telling and the quote is 1404 01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:27,060 there's no indication that the hills 1405 01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:28,970 were ever contacted by the air force 1406 01:09:33,530 --> 01:09:31,290 after this report was filed 1407 01:09:36,650 --> 01:09:33,540 this is particularly strange since 1408 01:09:39,290 --> 01:09:36,660 Project Blue Book files show that a UFO 1409 01:09:42,110 --> 01:09:39,300 was spotted and tracked by Air Force 1410 01:09:44,930 --> 01:09:42,120 radar operators at the nearby Concord 1411 01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:44,940 Air Force Station in Vermont less than 1412 01:09:50,690 --> 01:09:47,610 seven hours prior to the hill sighting 1413 01:09:53,810 --> 01:09:50,700 another UFO was sighted by Pease Air 1414 01:09:56,900 --> 01:09:53,820 Force Base precision approach radar just 1415 01:10:01,520 --> 01:09:56,910 two hours following the hills visual 1416 01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:01,530 sighting and so the end quote the caller 1417 01:10:04,850 --> 01:10:03,090 the ball was up in the air for a minute 1418 01:10:06,950 --> 01:10:04,860 as I think we're kind of a little bit 1419 01:10:09,110 --> 01:10:06,960 confused I don't think carpet and 1420 01:10:11,450 --> 01:10:09,120 they're in air installation there I 1421 01:10:12,710 --> 01:10:11,460 believe if I'm not mistaken whatever in 1422 01:10:15,140 --> 01:10:12,720 Burlington where the Air National Guard 1423 01:10:17,870 --> 01:10:15,150 is located and the other would obviously 1424 01:10:19,460 --> 01:10:17,880 been piece piece Air Force Base and now 1425 01:10:22,610 --> 01:10:19,470 considering that that is a very highly 1426 01:10:25,250 --> 01:10:22,620 trafficked air route where you get 1427 01:10:28,100 --> 01:10:25,260 interoceanic flights that fly right over 1428 01:10:30,530 --> 01:10:28,110 gander Newfoundland western Maine as a 1429 01:10:32,450 --> 01:10:30,540 matter of fact and therefore right over 1430 01:10:35,090 --> 01:10:32,460 the area where this is alleged to have 1431 01:10:37,250 --> 01:10:35,100 occurred what specifically was the radar 1432 01:10:41,270 --> 01:10:37,260 anomaly that was tracked and what time 1433 01:10:43,820 --> 01:10:41,280 did these Tracking's made well I don't 1434 01:10:45,920 --> 01:10:43,830 have the exact that's in the report all 1435 01:10:48,410 --> 01:10:45,930 I know is what I just read to you was 1436 01:10:49,970 --> 01:10:48,420 from the report seven hours before two 1437 01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:49,980 hours after the hills and the fact that 1438 01:10:53,870 --> 01:10:51,570 they that the officers themselves 1439 01:10:56,630 --> 01:10:53,880 included in the report that the first 1440 01:10:58,970 --> 01:10:56,640 tracking was from the Concord Air Force 1441 01:11:00,920 --> 01:10:58,980 Station in Vermont that's not a lie and 1442 01:11:01,550 --> 01:11:00,930 if it is then they made the mistake not 1443 01:11:02,930 --> 01:11:01,560 me 1444 01:11:05,780 --> 01:11:02,940 you know and you would think that they 1445 01:11:07,730 --> 01:11:05,790 would know where this radar installation 1446 01:11:11,930 --> 01:11:07,740 was from allows about two years of the 1447 01:11:13,490 --> 01:11:11,940 old at the time so maybe almost no III 1448 01:11:19,040 --> 01:11:13,500 like to 1449 01:11:22,150 --> 01:11:19,050 should know as as fact but but the 1450 01:11:24,140 --> 01:11:22,160 follow-up part of the radar sightings 1451 01:11:27,590 --> 01:11:24,150 indicated and I at this is really 1452 01:11:30,590 --> 01:11:27,600 telling I think it indicated that the 1453 01:11:32,420 --> 01:11:30,600 Air Force took its sweet time in sending 1454 01:11:34,930 --> 01:11:32,430 those radar reports the project Bluebook 1455 01:11:37,820 --> 01:11:34,940 headquarters and according to the report 1456 01:11:40,460 --> 01:11:37,830 things like that would have normally 1457 01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:40,470 been wired to headquarters really fast 1458 01:11:47,060 --> 01:11:43,890 but in this instance it was mailed snail 1459 01:11:50,690 --> 01:11:47,070 mailed to Blue Book eight days after the 1460 01:11:54,260 --> 01:11:50,700 original Hill report was filed again 1461 01:11:57,140 --> 01:11:54,270 this is just a very small portion of the 1462 01:11:59,720 --> 01:11:57,150 larger research paper of the the Barney 1463 01:12:01,940 --> 01:11:59,730 and Betty Hill story was a small portion 1464 01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:01,950 but an important portion of this this 1465 01:12:07,370 --> 01:12:04,530 big research paper the paper concluded 1466 01:12:09,560 --> 01:12:07,380 that a UFO investigation should have 1467 01:12:11,030 --> 01:12:09,570 continued or been reopened by the 1468 01:12:13,190 --> 01:12:11,040 military because there were just too 1469 01:12:15,470 --> 01:12:13,200 many unanswered and unacceptable 1470 01:12:18,020 --> 01:12:15,480 questions about the whole subject now 1471 01:12:21,170 --> 01:12:18,030 and this is all part of it are you 1472 01:12:25,250 --> 01:12:21,180 familiar with the name colonel robert 1473 01:12:28,070 --> 01:12:25,260 friend from the Air Force no okay 1474 01:12:30,710 --> 01:12:28,080 Colonel Robert friend now retired at the 1475 01:12:33,110 --> 01:12:30,720 time he was the director of project 1476 01:12:36,790 --> 01:12:33,120 Bluebook at the time of the Barney and 1477 01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:36,800 Betty Hill encounter he has since stated 1478 01:12:42,590 --> 01:12:39,690 many times that the Bluebook 1479 01:12:45,110 --> 01:12:42,600 organization was useless that it never 1480 01:12:48,260 --> 01:12:45,120 should have been terminated in 1969 and 1481 01:12:51,140 --> 01:12:48,270 he maintains to this day that there 1482 01:12:54,230 --> 01:12:51,150 should be a strong new scientific 1483 01:12:57,650 --> 01:12:54,240 investigation into UFOs well I'm in 1484 01:13:00,800 --> 01:12:57,660 favor yeah during the question I'm glad 1485 01:13:03,260 --> 01:13:00,810 you say that during the course of my 1486 01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:03,270 military career I did in fact file a UFO 1487 01:13:07,370 --> 01:13:05,610 report we're all pretty sure it was a 1488 01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:07,380 parachute flare but we never were able 1489 01:13:13,970 --> 01:13:09,690 to locate the flare so okay you know 1490 01:13:15,770 --> 01:13:13,980 it's a UFO mises unidentified it does 1491 01:13:16,940 --> 01:13:15,780 not say positively identified as an 1492 01:13:20,180 --> 01:13:16,950 alien spacecraft 1493 01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:20,190 now check me if I'm wrong but those two 1494 01:13:24,440 --> 01:13:22,410 radar reports also concluded that the 1495 01:13:26,660 --> 01:13:24,450 movement of these unidentified objects 1496 01:13:30,410 --> 01:13:26,670 was consistent with weather balloons 1497 01:13:32,330 --> 01:13:30,420 yes no that what it said was the report 1498 01:13:34,370 --> 01:13:32,340 actually said it could have been a 1499 01:13:36,500 --> 01:13:34,380 weather balloon or some kind of balloon 1500 01:13:39,170 --> 01:13:36,510 but but when you read things like that 1501 01:13:42,110 --> 01:13:39,180 Jim as I've come to recognize when I 1502 01:13:46,130 --> 01:13:42,120 read these things that's just one 1503 01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:46,140 possibility and it's not hardcore it's 1504 01:13:51,830 --> 01:13:48,810 not hard and fast and you know cutting 1505 01:13:55,790 --> 01:13:51,840 stone that this is what it was and and 1506 01:13:59,450 --> 01:13:55,800 the problem that I have with hard-nosed 1507 01:14:01,640 --> 01:13:59,460 skeptics or debunkers who haven't really 1508 01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:01,650 looked into certain cases like this I 1509 01:14:07,070 --> 01:14:04,770 have a problem because it's too easy to 1510 01:14:09,170 --> 01:14:07,080 say no didn't happen no it wasn't a 1511 01:14:12,530 --> 01:14:09,180 proper memory no they didn't recall it 1512 01:14:13,610 --> 01:14:12,540 no hypnosis is lousy no no no that you 1513 01:14:19,370 --> 01:14:13,620 know this just couldn't have happened 1514 01:14:22,490 --> 01:14:19,380 and that borders on ridicule of a sense 1515 01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:22,500 and I think that the whole ridicule in 1516 01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:26,850 this subject has got to stop and even 1517 01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:31,410 years after the story happened we don't 1518 01:14:36,530 --> 01:14:33,890 know exactly what Betty and Barney Hill 1519 01:14:38,530 --> 01:14:36,540 experienced but there were there was 1520 01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:38,540 enough information and enough 1521 01:14:45,050 --> 01:14:41,730 information after the sighting years 1522 01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:45,060 after from the Air Force itself who were 1523 01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:47,970 responsible for looking into this and 1524 01:14:52,640 --> 01:14:50,330 they did such a terrible job of 1525 01:14:55,490 --> 01:14:52,650 investigating it they didn't even really 1526 01:14:58,280 --> 01:14:55,500 investigate it they just swiped it away 1527 01:15:00,310 --> 01:14:58,290 you know under the carpet and and then 1528 01:15:04,270 --> 01:15:00,320 it was it was just gone and done with 1529 01:15:06,950 --> 01:15:04,280 and and that has happened too many times 1530 01:15:08,750 --> 01:15:06,960 too many times at all I mean I I know 1531 01:15:12,590 --> 01:15:08,760 about there's a man named William 1532 01:15:14,270 --> 01:15:12,600 Colonel William Coleman who was also 1533 01:15:17,030 --> 01:15:14,280 part of Project Blue Book he was a high 1534 01:15:19,670 --> 01:15:17,040 official directly under robert friend 1535 01:15:23,030 --> 01:15:19,680 that ran Project Blue Book but before 1536 01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:23,040 Colonel Coleman began working on project 1537 01:15:25,970 --> 01:15:23,370 Bluebook 1538 01:15:28,940 --> 01:15:25,980 he was a he was a jet fighter pilot and 1539 01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:28,950 he was a he was the pilot of a b-25 1540 01:15:35,380 --> 01:15:32,610 bomber and in nineteen to 1955 and this 1541 01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:35,390 is a true story because I've talked with 1542 01:15:40,609 --> 01:15:38,010 bill Coleman about this before he passed 1543 01:15:43,669 --> 01:15:40,619 on and in 1955 1544 01:15:45,379 --> 01:15:43,679 five he was the pilot of a b-25 bomber 1545 01:15:48,290 --> 01:15:45,389 they were flying over Alabama he had a 1546 01:15:51,049 --> 01:15:48,300 crew of five and they all saw this shiny 1547 01:15:54,049 --> 01:15:51,059 thing coming down from the sky slowly 1548 01:15:56,239 --> 01:15:54,059 and and then it turned direction and 1549 01:15:59,719 --> 01:15:56,249 they decided to get a closer look at it 1550 01:16:01,969 --> 01:15:59,729 and they maneuvered the b25 this is a 1551 01:16:05,359 --> 01:16:01,979 pretty big claim they maneuvered that 1552 01:16:07,459 --> 01:16:05,369 the plane to at treetop level and then 1553 01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:07,469 they lost the objects the object they 1554 01:16:12,500 --> 01:16:09,449 flew around the trees almost sat the 1555 01:16:14,479 --> 01:16:12,510 ground and then they saw it again it was 1556 01:16:17,330 --> 01:16:14,489 flying across they were skimming across 1557 01:16:20,359 --> 01:16:17,340 a field like a farmer's field and it was 1558 01:16:22,549 --> 01:16:20,369 leaving some like dirt tracks behind it 1559 01:16:24,830 --> 01:16:22,559 as it was moving across the ground and 1560 01:16:26,750 --> 01:16:24,840 it was at that point that all all the 1561 01:16:28,399 --> 01:16:26,760 crew members noticed that this thing was 1562 01:16:30,469 --> 01:16:28,409 about 70 feet in diameter 1563 01:16:33,919 --> 01:16:30,479 it was completely circular it had a dome 1564 01:16:35,239 --> 01:16:33,929 on top and it was shiny there were no 1565 01:16:37,879 --> 01:16:35,249 rivets that they could see they were 1566 01:16:39,290 --> 01:16:37,889 that close to it and and then as they 1567 01:16:40,909 --> 01:16:39,300 tried to get really close to it the 1568 01:16:45,469 --> 01:16:40,919 thing just shot up in the air and was 1569 01:16:47,629 --> 01:16:45,479 gone this was 1955 when there's no one 1570 01:16:50,949 --> 01:16:47,639 of the base operations officer say about 1571 01:16:55,040 --> 01:16:50,959 them flying a b25 at treetop level that 1572 01:16:56,389 --> 01:16:55,050 I know well you know when when you're 1573 01:16:58,549 --> 01:16:56,399 when you're when you're a jet fighter 1574 01:17:00,589 --> 01:16:58,559 pilot and you're involved with an 1575 01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:00,599 encounter like that you know you don't 1576 01:17:04,219 --> 01:17:02,610 always think about what should i do why 1577 01:17:05,989 --> 01:17:04,229 shouldn't I do I want to get close 1578 01:17:08,959 --> 01:17:05,999 enough to this thing I may break a few 1579 01:17:13,250 --> 01:17:08,969 rules in the process okay you know we 1580 01:17:15,859 --> 01:17:13,260 nasi story and in a fairy tale a fairy 1581 01:17:20,330 --> 01:17:15,869 tale once upon a time and the C story 1582 01:17:21,799 --> 01:17:20,340 starts no guys there I was well so 1583 01:17:24,739 --> 01:17:21,809 well known that fire 1584 01:17:27,109 --> 01:17:24,749 Air Force pilots brains don't work below 1585 01:17:29,899 --> 01:17:27,119 fifty thousand feet just yeah but Jim 1586 01:17:32,839 --> 01:17:29,909 you're so you're saying that as a way of 1587 01:17:34,819 --> 01:17:32,849 writing this story off see you got that 1588 01:17:36,799 --> 01:17:34,829 with Kathy Martin I mean you probably do 1589 01:17:38,750 --> 01:17:36,809 that with other UFO stories you can't 1590 01:17:41,629 --> 01:17:38,760 continue to do that and come across 1591 01:17:42,919 --> 01:17:41,639 credibly I'm telling you you you do 1592 01:17:46,639 --> 01:17:42,929 don't come you're trying to say that 1593 01:17:49,669 --> 01:17:46,649 when you cross the top of the controller 1594 01:17:51,799 --> 01:17:49,679 of Mount Prospect in Lancaster that you 1595 01:17:53,359 --> 01:17:51,809 don't see the cannon mountain light is 1596 01:17:54,439 --> 01:17:53,369 that what you're trying to say I'm not 1597 01:17:57,620 --> 01:17:54,449 saying that at all 1598 01:17:58,879 --> 01:17:57,630 I'm talking about you do know I see now 1599 01:18:00,680 --> 01:17:58,889 you're bringing it back what you're 1600 01:18:03,140 --> 01:18:00,690 doing what you're doing right now Jim 1601 01:18:06,020 --> 01:18:03,150 and I hope other listeners are realizing 1602 01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:06,030 this you're employing a thing that 1603 01:18:09,529 --> 01:18:07,650 magicians use and I know you're a 1604 01:18:11,449 --> 01:18:09,539 magician you know what I'm talking about 1605 01:18:15,169 --> 01:18:11,459 you're employing something that's called 1606 01:18:17,479 --> 01:18:15,179 misdirection you are miss directing the 1607 01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:17,489 attention span of myself and other 1608 01:18:21,049 --> 01:18:19,530 people listening so that you can kind of 1609 01:18:23,739 --> 01:18:21,059 forget what I just talked about and 1610 01:18:26,209 --> 01:18:23,749 bring me to another area Jim well I 1611 01:18:27,890 --> 01:18:26,219 can't get away with that I'm just 1612 01:18:30,859 --> 01:18:27,900 talking about Betty and Barney I don't 1613 01:18:33,979 --> 01:18:30,869 know what the sky saw in 55 I don't care 1614 01:18:36,020 --> 01:18:33,989 what he saw in 55 well I do and so does 1615 01:18:37,969 --> 01:18:36,030 the Air Force and apparently they were 1616 01:18:40,520 --> 01:18:37,979 they were so concerned about what he and 1617 01:18:43,160 --> 01:18:40,530 the crew saw that when the crew landed 1618 01:18:45,080 --> 01:18:43,170 all five of them independently wrote 1619 01:18:47,989 --> 01:18:45,090 reports of exactly what they had just 1620 01:18:51,379 --> 01:18:47,999 encountered what they saw those reports 1621 01:18:55,489 --> 01:18:51,389 were then sent to Project Blue Book 1622 01:18:57,790 --> 01:18:55,499 headquarters she can okay okay but but 1623 01:19:00,859 --> 01:18:57,800 the rest of that story is years later 1624 01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:00,869 when current when when major Coleman 1625 01:19:04,339 --> 01:19:02,610 became colonel Coleman and was one of 1626 01:19:07,430 --> 01:19:04,349 the people in charge of blue work he 1627 01:19:09,229 --> 01:19:07,440 decided to go look for those reports he 1628 01:19:10,969 --> 01:19:09,239 wanted to look them over again and they 1629 01:19:14,029 --> 01:19:10,979 were gone they were nowhere to be found 1630 01:19:15,830 --> 01:19:14,039 in the Project Blue Book files so my 1631 01:19:17,959 --> 01:19:15,840 question is what the hell happened to 1632 01:19:20,239 --> 01:19:17,969 this stuff and why who's making these 1633 01:19:23,180 --> 01:19:20,249 decisions and what are these decisions 1634 01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:23,190 based on if it was if it was nothing 1635 01:19:26,870 --> 01:19:25,050 that they traced if it was the planet 1636 01:19:30,830 --> 01:19:26,880 Jupiter or the moon there should be no 1637 01:19:33,319 --> 01:19:30,840 problem but the reports were gone and 1638 01:19:36,410 --> 01:19:33,329 this is not the only time Jim that this 1639 01:19:39,290 --> 01:19:36,420 has happened in military information and 1640 01:19:41,060 --> 01:19:39,300 investigation of UFOs and I know this 1641 01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:41,070 because I've really looked into this and 1642 01:19:47,209 --> 01:19:43,650 I've talked with pilots and they have no 1643 01:19:49,729 --> 01:19:47,219 reason to lie because something it could 1644 01:19:51,229 --> 01:19:49,739 be a career killer if this kind of stuff 1645 01:19:52,069 --> 01:19:51,239 went out that they were lying about 1646 01:19:53,989 --> 01:19:52,079 these things 1647 01:19:56,390 --> 01:19:53,999 same thing with regular airline pilots 1648 01:19:59,689 --> 01:19:56,400 who won't talk about things that they 1649 01:20:01,939 --> 01:19:59,699 see pacing their airliners because it 1650 01:20:03,620 --> 01:20:01,949 could kill their careers and it could 1651 01:20:06,589 --> 01:20:03,630 not look really good for the airline 1652 01:20:08,330 --> 01:20:06,599 industry so they don't make the reports 1653 01:20:10,850 --> 01:20:08,340 but it's all mean they're not seeing the 1654 01:20:11,450 --> 01:20:10,860 things nobody says we're not seeing 1655 01:20:14,450 --> 01:20:11,460 anything 1656 01:20:17,270 --> 01:20:14,460 all right well surely we have to get 1657 01:20:19,430 --> 01:20:17,280 some other callers thanks so much for 1658 01:20:21,080 --> 01:20:19,440 calling ticket thank you for having me 1659 01:20:23,180 --> 01:20:21,090 on Martin I appreciate it all right 1660 01:20:25,100 --> 01:20:23,190 okay all right you take care all right 1661 01:20:27,320 --> 01:20:25,110 bye-bye bye-bye huh 1662 01:20:29,750 --> 01:20:27,330 Martin Clara I need a point of 1663 01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:29,760 clarification on the last caller he 1664 01:20:33,320 --> 01:20:31,170 mentioned the radar installations 1665 01:20:35,060 --> 01:20:33,330 actually there was not a Air Force Base 1666 01:20:36,560 --> 01:20:35,070 located within Concord New Hampshire but 1667 01:20:39,080 --> 01:20:36,570 there was an Air Force Base in the 1668 01:20:41,030 --> 01:20:39,090 Northeast Kingdom that was operational 1669 01:20:43,189 --> 01:20:41,040 at the time that this incident is 1670 01:20:45,950 --> 01:20:43,199 alleged to occurred and we talked about 1671 01:20:47,359 --> 01:20:45,960 New Concord Air Force Base and that 1672 01:20:50,540 --> 01:20:47,369 happens to be located in the Northeast 1673 01:20:52,729 --> 01:20:50,550 hing Northeast Kingdom right up against 1674 01:20:55,640 --> 01:20:52,739 the New Hampshire border so most like I 1675 01:20:57,229 --> 01:20:55,650 would have been between this New Concord 1676 01:21:01,399 --> 01:20:57,239 Air Force Base which was a surveillance 1677 01:21:05,510 --> 01:21:01,409 base and peace yeah that's on Route two 1678 01:21:08,410 --> 01:21:05,520 in Concord Vermont it's uh it's just a 1679 01:21:10,850 --> 01:21:08,420 little bit east of st. Johnsbury exactly 1680 01:21:13,850 --> 01:21:10,860 exactly right but it's been closed since 1681 01:21:15,919 --> 01:21:13,860 1963 okay you have a we have another 1682 01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:15,929 caller on the line caller your first 1683 01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:19,050 name where you're calling from um my 1684 01:21:24,379 --> 01:21:21,090 name is Donna I'm calling from Cape Cod 1685 01:21:26,419 --> 01:21:24,389 oh hey hey Donna how are you hey good 1686 01:21:29,570 --> 01:21:26,429 how are you doing good good so you've 1687 01:21:31,970 --> 01:21:29,580 been listening to show you you have go 1688 01:21:34,609 --> 01:21:31,980 ahead yes um 1689 01:21:37,820 --> 01:21:34,619 Jim I am really enjoying your 1690 01:21:41,510 --> 01:21:37,830 perspective it's very interesting to 1691 01:21:43,510 --> 01:21:41,520 hear the other possibilities for what 1692 01:21:46,250 --> 01:21:43,520 might of the hills might have 1693 01:21:49,970 --> 01:21:46,260 encountered that night and I would like 1694 01:21:52,970 --> 01:21:49,980 to just let you know that everything you 1695 01:21:56,660 --> 01:21:52,980 said about hypnotherapy and recovery and 1696 01:21:58,310 --> 01:21:56,670 so forth it's very true you um have to 1697 01:22:03,500 --> 01:21:58,320 really take all of that with a grain of 1698 01:22:06,140 --> 01:22:03,510 salt and I wonder if now it seems in the 1699 01:22:09,320 --> 01:22:06,150 past talking about the hill case it was 1700 01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:09,330 a very big feature to talk about 1701 01:22:16,399 --> 01:22:14,010 recovered memory and mm and now now it 1702 01:22:19,490 --> 01:22:16,409 sounds like it's more the continuous 1703 01:22:21,169 --> 01:22:19,500 conscious memories that they had so I'm 1704 01:22:22,070 --> 01:22:21,179 wondering if they had all of those 1705 01:22:27,370 --> 01:22:22,080 memories why 1706 01:22:29,660 --> 01:22:27,380 they sought out an additional kind of 1707 01:22:32,030 --> 01:22:29,670 therapy maybe to get a little more 1708 01:22:35,630 --> 01:22:32,040 information and that type of thing but 1709 01:22:38,720 --> 01:22:35,640 what is really interesting to me is that 1710 01:22:41,980 --> 01:22:38,730 that whole hypnotherapy doctor Benjamin 1711 01:22:44,690 --> 01:22:41,990 Simon the psychiatrist very prestigious 1712 01:22:49,810 --> 01:22:44,700 psychiatrist in Boston has always been 1713 01:22:54,020 --> 01:22:49,820 used to support the story in that he 1714 01:22:58,430 --> 01:22:54,030 said that he did not believe the hills 1715 01:23:02,360 --> 01:22:58,440 were lying or hoaxing but he also did 1716 01:23:05,470 --> 01:23:02,370 not believe in any way whatsoever that 1717 01:23:10,220 --> 01:23:05,480 the hills had been actually abducted 1718 01:23:15,220 --> 01:23:10,230 that he felt that they had as you were 1719 01:23:20,380 --> 01:23:15,230 saying just misinterpreted things and 1720 01:23:25,330 --> 01:23:20,390 that writing in particular had some 1721 01:23:28,580 --> 01:23:25,340 psychological issues and proposed that 1722 01:23:31,990 --> 01:23:28,590 what had happened is they had 1723 01:23:36,470 --> 01:23:32,000 misinterpreted maybe some of these 1724 01:23:41,510 --> 01:23:36,480 things and it had turned into this story 1725 01:23:44,030 --> 01:23:41,520 years later under hypnosis but he did 1726 01:23:47,570 --> 01:23:44,040 not believe that he didn't believe and 1727 01:23:51,800 --> 01:23:47,580 aliens or flying saucers or anything 1728 01:23:56,330 --> 01:23:51,810 like that and and so that's really kind 1729 01:23:59,200 --> 01:23:56,340 of an important feature and also during 1730 01:24:02,530 --> 01:23:59,210 those abduction tapes which are easily 1731 01:24:06,590 --> 01:24:02,540 accessible you can hear Bonnie 1732 01:24:09,530 --> 01:24:06,600 describing the alien or whatever was on 1733 01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:09,540 the craft whatever we want to call that 1734 01:24:16,490 --> 01:24:13,370 as looking like red-headed Irishmen 1735 01:24:20,620 --> 01:24:16,500 morphing into Nazi morphing into other 1736 01:24:25,130 --> 01:24:20,630 kind of entities before getting to the 1737 01:24:28,700 --> 01:24:25,140 stereotypical gray so that that's rather 1738 01:24:34,460 --> 01:24:28,710 an interesting feature as well and I was 1739 01:24:35,450 --> 01:24:34,470 hoping that Kathy could talk about why 1740 01:24:38,840 --> 01:24:35,460 Benjie 1741 01:24:42,229 --> 01:24:38,850 and Simon you know clearly did not 1742 01:24:45,979 --> 01:24:42,239 believe that this was an actual 1743 01:24:49,880 --> 01:24:45,989 abduction what her take would be on that 1744 01:24:53,360 --> 01:24:49,890 and and again thanks very much Jim and 1745 01:24:56,990 --> 01:24:53,370 Martin interesting show I don't know so 1746 01:24:59,630 --> 01:24:57,000 Donna just one thing I don't know really 1747 01:25:03,040 --> 01:24:59,640 if you think about it 1748 01:25:05,180 --> 01:25:03,050 there had been no precedent for this 1749 01:25:07,190 --> 01:25:05,190 that was known you know there is one 1750 01:25:09,770 --> 01:25:07,200 abduction case someone claims back in 1751 01:25:12,560 --> 01:25:09,780 the 1920s or something like that but 1752 01:25:15,350 --> 01:25:12,570 there's really nothing you know that 1753 01:25:17,690 --> 01:25:15,360 came before this so I can't old right 1754 01:25:19,130 --> 01:25:17,700 you know looking at it you know devil's 1755 01:25:22,160 --> 01:25:19,140 advocate in that way 1756 01:25:24,500 --> 01:25:22,170 right how I say that right there would 1757 01:25:27,140 --> 01:25:24,510 be nothing to compare it to to say oh 1758 01:25:29,780 --> 01:25:27,150 this is like the other abduction case 1759 01:25:32,450 --> 01:25:29,790 because this was like the first well it 1760 01:25:34,070 --> 01:25:32,460 really wasn't the first one because you 1761 01:25:36,050 --> 01:25:34,080 know there were there are a bunch of 1762 01:25:39,350 --> 01:25:36,060 people in the 50s that we don't talk 1763 01:25:41,240 --> 01:25:39,360 about anymore that were abducted and 1764 01:25:43,670 --> 01:25:41,250 going here there and everyone you know 1765 01:25:45,680 --> 01:25:43,680 to other planets so was it real 1766 01:25:48,170 --> 01:25:45,690 yeah the contactees i mean whatever we 1767 01:25:51,130 --> 01:25:48,180 want to you know call experience or so 1768 01:25:56,870 --> 01:25:51,140 whatever they're people that are taken 1769 01:25:59,570 --> 01:25:56,880 elsewhere you know by way of you know so 1770 01:26:02,860 --> 01:25:59,580 whatever we want to call them so so 1771 01:26:06,260 --> 01:26:02,870 there there clearly was some kind of 1772 01:26:09,670 --> 01:26:06,270 maybe not through use of hypnosis but it 1773 01:26:13,760 --> 01:26:09,680 wasn't unheard of of people getting 1774 01:26:15,170 --> 01:26:13,770 rides to other places for movement in 1775 01:26:17,990 --> 01:26:15,180 the 50s 1776 01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:18,000 well correct me if i'm wrong on this one 1777 01:26:24,709 --> 01:26:21,930 weren't they supposedly in their own 1778 01:26:27,260 --> 01:26:24,719 words engaging and wanting to go for 1779 01:26:30,680 --> 01:26:27,270 these rides and in this case they were 1780 01:26:32,750 --> 01:26:30,690 actually supposedly taken right right oh 1781 01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:32,760 they were they were only similar and and 1782 01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:35,610 that it wasn't it wasn't totally outside 1783 01:26:44,180 --> 01:26:39,930 of cult you know the popular culture to 1784 01:26:47,740 --> 01:26:44,190 have people being you know taken or 1785 01:26:49,100 --> 01:26:47,750 going you know voluntarily or not being 1786 01:26:51,459 --> 01:26:49,110 transported 1787 01:26:56,689 --> 01:26:51,469 so that wasn't you know the first time 1788 01:26:58,760 --> 01:26:56,699 it was the first time I think I might be 1789 01:27:02,270 --> 01:26:58,770 wrong but I think it's the first time 1790 01:27:06,350 --> 01:27:02,280 that hypnotherapy was used there may 1791 01:27:09,590 --> 01:27:06,360 have been some military cases but anyway 1792 01:27:11,540 --> 01:27:09,600 but not only not only was dr. Simon so 1793 01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:11,550 even if you say well no one had heard of 1794 01:27:15,979 --> 01:27:13,290 this this was ridiculous so he would 1795 01:27:19,250 --> 01:27:15,989 have no nothing to base it on he was 1796 01:27:23,540 --> 01:27:19,260 also using his clinical skills too 1797 01:27:26,209 --> 01:27:23,550 having heard the entire again very 1798 01:27:30,560 --> 01:27:26,219 accessible if you hear some of these 1799 01:27:33,200 --> 01:27:30,570 tapes he was he was basing this on his 1800 01:27:34,820 --> 01:27:33,210 clinical skills of other issues that may 1801 01:27:37,609 --> 01:27:34,830 have been involved on a psychological 1802 01:27:40,310 --> 01:27:37,619 level and that's what you would expect I 1803 01:27:45,379 --> 01:27:40,320 mean that's what he was not there as the 1804 01:27:48,890 --> 01:27:45,389 test this as is this a test for truth he 1805 01:27:55,070 --> 01:27:48,900 his role in this actually I believe was 1806 01:27:57,640 --> 01:27:55,080 his his role in it like I'm sorry I lost 1807 01:28:01,370 --> 01:27:57,650 my train of thought there for a second 1808 01:28:04,280 --> 01:28:01,380 his role was really I think to help them 1809 01:28:08,359 --> 01:28:04,290 deal with some of the anxiety it was 1810 01:28:12,379 --> 01:28:08,369 more of a treatment kind of thing was my 1811 01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:12,389 understanding from talking to him in the 1812 01:28:19,970 --> 01:28:17,010 70s that he he was you know helping them 1813 01:28:22,729 --> 01:28:19,980 cope with from the dreams and the 1814 01:28:25,879 --> 01:28:22,739 discomfort that they were having and so 1815 01:28:28,340 --> 01:28:25,889 that's what his role was but but his the 1816 01:28:32,060 --> 01:28:28,350 therapeutic you know his opinion was 1817 01:28:34,430 --> 01:28:32,070 that there were some stressors and 1818 01:28:37,939 --> 01:28:34,440 things in the marriage and not so much 1819 01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:37,949 between them it was more of the you know 1820 01:28:45,890 --> 01:28:43,170 the time period and what was going on 1821 01:28:48,260 --> 01:28:45,900 they were very very involved in civil 1822 01:28:50,870 --> 01:28:48,270 rights and so forth and so he thought it 1823 01:28:53,810 --> 01:28:50,880 had to do more with that so it wasn't 1824 01:28:56,180 --> 01:28:53,820 just I don't believe in UFOs it was like 1825 01:29:00,470 --> 01:28:56,190 I can see where these symptoms are 1826 01:29:02,200 --> 01:29:00,480 coming from so it's just another piece a 1827 01:29:04,330 --> 01:29:02,210 therapist role 1828 01:29:07,390 --> 01:29:04,340 is not to prove or disprove what 1829 01:29:09,430 --> 01:29:07,400 somebody is thinking because I can't you 1830 01:29:11,050 --> 01:29:09,440 know you say you're happy you're happy i 1831 01:29:13,510 --> 01:29:11,060 how am I going to disprove that you're 1832 01:29:17,020 --> 01:29:13,520 happy you say aye aye 1833 01:29:20,800 --> 01:29:17,030 whatever his role is to facilitate and 1834 01:29:23,910 --> 01:29:20,810 his role is not to believe the physical 1835 01:29:27,280 --> 01:29:23,920 fact but to believe that they believe it 1836 01:29:28,990 --> 01:29:27,290 mm-hmm so Frank that's what your 1837 01:29:31,720 --> 01:29:29,000 therapist is doing and there have been 1838 01:29:34,479 --> 01:29:31,730 other high-profile things with hypnosis 1839 01:29:35,979 --> 01:29:34,489 and regression we have the case of 1840 01:29:38,860 --> 01:29:35,989 Michelle remembers where we have a 1841 01:29:42,100 --> 01:29:38,870 little girl in later life who remembers 1842 01:29:45,880 --> 01:29:42,110 under hypnosis being horribly abused by 1843 01:29:47,320 --> 01:29:45,890 satanic cult even though other 1844 01:29:48,970 --> 01:29:47,330 researchers who have looked at it 1845 01:29:50,560 --> 01:29:48,980 discovered that during the time when she 1846 01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:50,570 was supposed to be in a cage and beaten 1847 01:29:55,570 --> 01:29:53,570 every day and watching a doctor cut a 1848 01:29:56,950 --> 01:29:55,580 body departs put it together attached 1849 01:30:00,070 --> 01:29:56,960 electrical cables and bring it back to 1850 01:30:02,310 --> 01:30:00,080 life all this stuff that mm-hmm that she 1851 01:30:05,890 --> 01:30:02,320 had not missed a single day of school 1852 01:30:09,459 --> 01:30:05,900 right there is the potential for false 1853 01:30:13,150 --> 01:30:09,469 memory and dark this type of thing and 1854 01:30:15,430 --> 01:30:13,160 that is why it doesn't hold up in court 1855 01:30:18,760 --> 01:30:15,440 and because you need other corroborating 1856 01:30:21,070 --> 01:30:18,770 evidence in addition to whatever and it 1857 01:30:24,570 --> 01:30:21,080 did seem at least to me for a long time 1858 01:30:28,020 --> 01:30:24,580 that this whole you know part of 1859 01:30:31,950 --> 01:30:28,030 hypnotic regression was a big part of 1860 01:30:35,680 --> 01:30:31,960 the case and to find out that the 1861 01:30:39,459 --> 01:30:35,690 therapists you know didn't at all think 1862 01:30:42,640 --> 01:30:39,469 that was the actual experience um you 1863 01:30:45,450 --> 01:30:42,650 know interesting John let me ask you 1864 01:30:47,590 --> 01:30:45,460 this you've listened to the show 1865 01:30:50,470 --> 01:30:47,600 obviously all the way through you heard 1866 01:30:53,620 --> 01:30:50,480 the two callers Cathy Martin and the 1867 01:30:57,580 --> 01:30:53,630 other caller and their what they 1868 01:31:01,770 --> 01:30:57,590 presented on this case if you removed 1869 01:31:04,930 --> 01:31:01,780 the hypnotherapy what do you think about 1870 01:31:07,810 --> 01:31:04,940 Jim's idea of you know Cannon Mountain 1871 01:31:10,030 --> 01:31:07,820 and sleep deprivation and all that now 1872 01:31:11,890 --> 01:31:10,040 do you think that falls apart after 1873 01:31:12,500 --> 01:31:11,900 listening or do you think he's making a 1874 01:31:20,130 --> 01:31:12,510 point 1875 01:31:24,980 --> 01:31:20,140 of the reasons is because I lived in 1876 01:31:27,330 --> 01:31:24,990 Bethlehem New Hampshire for 17 years and 1877 01:31:30,060 --> 01:31:27,340 went through the knotch 1878 01:31:33,210 --> 01:31:30,070 very regularly and was tricked every 1879 01:31:35,340 --> 01:31:33,220 single time at night by that light and I 1880 01:31:38,720 --> 01:31:35,350 never put it together even though I was 1881 01:31:41,250 --> 01:31:38,730 a big follower of the Hilkiah I am a big 1882 01:31:45,180 --> 01:31:41,260 follower of the hill case and have been 1883 01:31:50,220 --> 01:31:45,190 since it was first brought to public 1884 01:31:52,560 --> 01:31:50,230 attention in the 60s mmm a couple of 1885 01:31:56,640 --> 01:31:52,570 years I guess after the actual event had 1886 01:32:03,570 --> 01:31:56,650 happened but I was tricked every time 1887 01:32:09,020 --> 01:32:03,580 and and after I had so basically that 1888 01:32:16,110 --> 01:32:09,030 the radar information is interesting but 1889 01:32:22,050 --> 01:32:16,120 also is that light and the glowing 1890 01:32:24,300 --> 01:32:22,060 orange ball there not only was a is the 1891 01:32:27,000 --> 01:32:24,310 jack-o'-lantern resort that hard a 1892 01:32:32,460 --> 01:32:27,010 jack-o'-lantern head on it salty was 1893 01:32:36,440 --> 01:32:32,470 also a billboard along the highway and 1894 01:32:40,010 --> 01:32:36,450 I'm imagining at night without any 1895 01:32:42,870 --> 01:32:40,020 lights and so forth at that time 1896 01:32:46,770 --> 01:32:42,880 headlights picking up that in the 1897 01:32:50,940 --> 01:32:46,780 distance would look like it was what big 1898 01:32:53,460 --> 01:32:50,950 giant glowing oil orange ball with 1899 01:32:55,440 --> 01:32:53,470 window with windows well you know 1900 01:32:58,020 --> 01:32:55,450 there's another thing about the windows 1901 01:32:59,940 --> 01:32:58,030 I don't know and I've read I've read so 1902 01:33:05,370 --> 01:32:59,950 much about it night I can't cite 1903 01:33:09,020 --> 01:33:05,380 specific sources but but it made a good 1904 01:33:12,420 --> 01:33:09,030 point the Cannon Mountain has a 1905 01:33:17,490 --> 01:33:12,430 cafeteria type of uh you know some kind 1906 01:33:21,770 --> 01:33:17,500 of refreshment stand and it has windows 1907 01:33:25,830 --> 01:33:21,780 and imagine that against a black 1908 01:33:28,439 --> 01:33:25,840 mountain with no whites except me 1909 01:33:31,859 --> 01:33:28,449 be some interior lights that if you were 1910 01:33:35,070 --> 01:33:31,869 looking through binoculars that might 1911 01:33:37,530 --> 01:33:35,080 look a lot like one of those pictures 1912 01:33:40,040 --> 01:33:37,540 Martin that you're flashing up of what 1913 01:33:45,600 --> 01:33:40,050 Barney was being she was a Bernard 1914 01:33:48,030 --> 01:33:45,610 installation being open in September it 1915 01:33:51,209 --> 01:33:48,040 was no no but I have research that I 1916 01:33:53,820 --> 01:33:51,219 have research that what it was 1917 01:34:00,089 --> 01:33:53,830 well the trams did go up I mean that was 1918 01:34:03,330 --> 01:34:00,099 fall and so they have not but they had 1919 01:34:06,419 --> 01:34:03,340 what they had were some like night light 1920 01:34:08,160 --> 01:34:06,429 type of things that would come on yeah 1921 01:34:09,689 --> 01:34:08,170 at night yes 1922 01:34:12,720 --> 01:34:09,699 Oh what if they weren't full-blown 1923 01:34:15,209 --> 01:34:12,730 lights they were just so imagine if 1924 01:34:19,560 --> 01:34:15,219 there's a kind of a rectangular like 1925 01:34:24,240 --> 01:34:19,570 structure with windows and some writing 1926 01:34:27,979 --> 01:34:24,250 against the black okay so that's just 1927 01:34:30,419 --> 01:34:27,989 some possibilities it's interesting yeah 1928 01:34:33,000 --> 01:34:30,429 the problem with that of course is that 1929 01:34:36,180 --> 01:34:33,010 they saw the lights of the top of the 1930 01:34:38,010 --> 01:34:36,190 tramway and you've got the exit signs 1931 01:34:39,330 --> 01:34:38,020 you've got night lighting in there 1932 01:34:43,500 --> 01:34:39,340 you've got the Coke machine which should 1933 01:34:45,570 --> 01:34:43,510 be illuminated and I can tell you my own 1934 01:34:47,550 --> 01:34:45,580 direct knowledge that on a dark night 1935 01:34:50,669 --> 01:34:47,560 you could see a cigarette at over two 1936 01:34:52,919 --> 01:34:50,679 miles okay so it doesn't have to be 1937 01:34:56,250 --> 01:34:52,929 really bright to be visible at the song 1938 01:34:58,589 --> 01:34:56,260 so that they they also saw their UFO 1939 01:35:03,000 --> 01:34:58,599 where you or I would have seen the 1940 01:35:05,310 --> 01:35:03,010 aircraft warning light mm-hmm now I like 1941 01:35:07,830 --> 01:35:05,320 the idea that the flat they had lights 1942 01:35:11,669 --> 01:35:07,840 flashed across the sign down by the road 1943 01:35:13,950 --> 01:35:11,679 just a split second and that remained as 1944 01:35:17,459 --> 01:35:13,960 a memory in there 1945 01:35:18,060 --> 01:35:17,469 I'm very sorry Kathy but they were sleep 1946 01:35:21,209 --> 01:35:18,070 deprived 1947 01:35:23,070 --> 01:35:21,219 Barney worked nights and now he's and he 1948 01:35:25,200 --> 01:35:23,080 switched around 12 or 12 1949 01:35:27,750 --> 01:35:25,210 he's driving days and sleeping nights 1950 01:35:31,589 --> 01:35:27,760 that is going to make an effect it 1951 01:35:33,120 --> 01:35:31,599 really will anyway and the next day when 1952 01:35:35,399 --> 01:35:33,130 they're trying to reconstruct what 1953 01:35:38,310 --> 01:35:35,409 happened they had us they were scared 1954 01:35:39,419 --> 01:35:38,320 I believe they totally were we know that 1955 01:35:43,049 --> 01:35:39,429 sleep tup 1956 01:35:45,660 --> 01:35:43,059 raishin gives us paranoia and there 1957 01:35:48,350 --> 01:35:45,670 they've got flashing little bits of 1958 01:35:50,939 --> 01:35:48,360 memory and they put it all together and 1959 01:35:51,390 --> 01:35:50,949 it doesn't take long to conflate like 1960 01:35:57,179 --> 01:35:51,400 that 1961 01:35:59,009 --> 01:35:57,189 now um so I I'm also gonna go out way on 1962 01:36:01,350 --> 01:35:59,019 the limb here and say that the aliens 1963 01:36:04,290 --> 01:36:01,360 for the triangular eyes are also the 1964 01:36:06,060 --> 01:36:04,300 jack-o'-lantern with triangular eyes the 1965 01:36:08,370 --> 01:36:06,070 aliens with no ears this exact liner 1966 01:36:09,719 --> 01:36:08,380 which has no ears well I would like to 1967 01:36:14,699 --> 01:36:09,729 throw this out there 1968 01:36:15,330 --> 01:36:14,709 hmm there is an episode of the Outer 1969 01:36:18,750 --> 01:36:15,340 Limits 1970 01:36:22,830 --> 01:36:18,760 I believe it was 9:00 broadcast nine 1971 01:36:26,669 --> 01:36:22,840 days prior to the date of the sighting 1972 01:36:37,819 --> 01:36:26,679 it's entitled the Bolero shield yeah 1973 01:36:43,830 --> 01:36:37,829 I've seen it has the sort of wrap around 1974 01:36:46,859 --> 01:36:43,840 you know slanted eyes not totally like 1975 01:36:51,270 --> 01:36:46,869 what we think of as a gray but some 1976 01:36:53,459 --> 01:36:51,280 features for sure but uh okay I don't 1977 01:36:56,189 --> 01:36:53,469 like that for a couple of reasons one 1978 01:36:59,669 --> 01:36:56,199 was that it was so recent compared to 1979 01:37:02,759 --> 01:36:59,679 the date when Barney talked with the 1980 01:37:04,919 --> 01:37:02,769 doctor that he would obviously remember 1981 01:37:08,069 --> 01:37:04,929 if he'd just seen this on TV two weeks 1982 01:37:10,259 --> 01:37:08,079 before and he strikes me as an honest 1983 01:37:15,000 --> 01:37:10,269 man who was trying to honestly recount 1984 01:37:16,799 --> 01:37:15,010 what he had experienced so in order to I 1985 01:37:19,620 --> 01:37:16,809 don't think I don't think anything that 1986 01:37:23,160 --> 01:37:19,630 he did they did was anything but honest 1987 01:37:25,140 --> 01:37:23,170 I'm just wondering no I I think they 1988 01:37:28,169 --> 01:37:25,150 were totally honest and they weren't 1989 01:37:30,810 --> 01:37:28,179 trying to deceive I'm just wondering for 1990 01:37:33,239 --> 01:37:30,820 example because it had been you know 1991 01:37:36,810 --> 01:37:33,249 maybe it was in the TV Guide maybe it 1992 01:37:39,779 --> 01:37:36,820 was you know maybe he just it was also a 1993 01:37:42,299 --> 01:37:39,789 door window I don't know okay but I've 1994 01:37:44,310 --> 01:37:42,309 got one that's better and that is earth 1995 01:37:47,370 --> 01:37:44,320 versus of flying saucers a Ray Harry 1996 01:37:50,250 --> 01:37:47,380 Allison movie from 1956 if you take a 1997 01:37:53,160 --> 01:37:50,260 look at the space alien in that it is 1998 01:37:57,600 --> 01:37:53,170 your classic gray and not only 1999 01:37:59,160 --> 01:37:57,610 yeah and it's great because earth vs. 2000 01:38:03,480 --> 01:37:59,170 the flying saucers was in black and 2001 01:38:05,940 --> 01:38:03,490 white you know whatever the flying 2002 01:38:08,220 --> 01:38:05,950 saucers also begins with a man and his 2003 01:38:10,470 --> 01:38:08,230 wife driving in their car when they're 2004 01:38:12,930 --> 01:38:10,480 buzzed by a flying saucer it also 2005 01:38:17,580 --> 01:38:12,940 includes an abduction and includes 2006 01:38:19,530 --> 01:38:17,590 telepathy it I mean if I'm gonna if I'm 2007 01:38:21,870 --> 01:38:19,540 gonna try you know match the popular 2008 01:38:22,230 --> 01:38:21,880 culture I do that but I'm not gonna do 2009 01:38:24,600 --> 01:38:22,240 that 2010 01:38:26,850 --> 01:38:24,610 all I'm saying is I'm matching the light 2011 01:38:30,660 --> 01:38:26,860 that they saw on the sky to a light on 2012 01:38:33,540 --> 01:38:30,670 Canada so the caller that we had Colin 2013 01:38:36,780 --> 01:38:33,550 that talked about the radar the radar 2014 01:38:39,810 --> 01:38:36,790 reports and all that are both of you 2015 01:38:42,930 --> 01:38:39,820 just totally discounting that as not 2016 01:38:46,980 --> 01:38:42,940 holding any water one five hours before 2017 01:38:49,590 --> 01:38:46,990 one two hours later Betty and Barney's 2018 01:38:52,290 --> 01:38:49,600 UFO is down at ground level while the 2019 01:38:57,350 --> 01:38:52,300 radar report is up five thousand feet 2020 01:38:59,610 --> 01:38:57,360 I'm not saying that that they aren't all 2021 01:39:02,490 --> 01:38:59,620 part of this it wasn't at ground level 2022 01:39:03,720 --> 01:39:02,500 the whole time but no it was but but it 2023 01:39:06,300 --> 01:39:03,730 was not at ground level the whole time 2024 01:39:09,060 --> 01:39:06,310 but it was certainly very very close 2025 01:39:11,460 --> 01:39:09,070 within 200 feet of the ground then on 2026 01:39:13,740 --> 01:39:11,470 the ground now 2027 01:39:16,110 --> 01:39:13,750 let's look briefly at some of that other 2028 01:39:17,850 --> 01:39:16,120 physical evidence I could imagine 2029 01:39:20,430 --> 01:39:17,860 lots of ways a pair of shoes could get 2030 01:39:22,740 --> 01:39:20,440 scuffed jumping in and out of a car at 2031 01:39:25,710 --> 01:39:22,750 night and running around an open field 2032 01:39:28,200 --> 01:39:25,720 and I can imagine a lot of ways that a 2033 01:39:30,320 --> 01:39:28,210 zipper can get torn jumping in and out 2034 01:39:33,960 --> 01:39:30,330 of a car of running around an open field 2035 01:39:35,850 --> 01:39:33,970 if I were to tell you that I saw Bill 2036 01:39:38,790 --> 01:39:35,860 Brown cross the road you'd believe me 2037 01:39:40,890 --> 01:39:38,800 right I got no reason to lie if I told 2038 01:39:43,290 --> 01:39:40,900 you that I saw Bill Brown levitate 2039 01:39:47,010 --> 01:39:43,300 across the road you'd say pics or it 2040 01:39:49,080 --> 01:39:47,020 didn't happen possibly yeah 2041 01:39:52,140 --> 01:39:49,090 all right caller thanks so much Donna 2042 01:39:52,530 --> 01:39:52,150 thank you for calling in all right 2043 01:39:55,440 --> 01:39:52,540 bye-bye 2044 01:39:59,580 --> 01:39:55,450 all right so we have an open line if 2045 01:40:06,370 --> 01:39:59,590 anyone wants to call in and that number 2046 01:40:09,100 --> 01:40:06,380 is 603 967 403 oh okay 2047 01:40:12,070 --> 01:40:09,110 mark can I can I use your good nature 2048 01:40:16,060 --> 01:40:12,080 for for a minute here and just totally 2049 01:40:18,910 --> 01:40:16,070 destroy the magician's code oh no no no 2050 01:40:23,680 --> 01:40:18,920 oh yeah okay just give me a mask you 2051 01:40:25,930 --> 01:40:23,690 know so we put on her hands and uh and 2052 01:40:27,520 --> 01:40:25,940 you know and a voiceover bye what's this 2053 01:40:28,590 --> 01:40:27,530 guy who played the director in in 2054 01:40:31,990 --> 01:40:28,600 x-files 2055 01:40:33,939 --> 01:40:32,000 whatever name one yeah okay anyway this 2056 01:40:39,300 --> 01:40:33,949 is from the massive Tarbell course of 2057 01:40:42,610 --> 01:40:39,310 magic 1920s and this is from volume 2 2058 01:40:47,200 --> 01:40:42,620 it's called spirit lights under test 2059 01:40:49,000 --> 01:40:47,210 conditions what an experienced showman 2060 01:40:51,669 --> 01:40:49,010 could devise and the flights of 2061 01:40:54,070 --> 01:40:51,679 imagination if he can induce through his 2062 01:40:56,439 --> 01:40:54,080 remarkable power of suggestion well well 2063 01:40:58,149 --> 01:40:56,449 it is well illustrated in this effect 2064 01:41:00,820 --> 01:40:58,159 that employs a very simple little 2065 01:41:03,160 --> 01:41:00,830 article Edward Saint the Houdini 2066 01:41:04,840 --> 01:41:03,170 archivist and a veteran mystic who is 2067 01:41:07,120 --> 01:41:04,850 known for seeing things through the 2068 01:41:09,070 --> 01:41:07,130 monocle was once challenged by a group 2069 01:41:11,800 --> 01:41:09,080 to produce some spirit manifestations 2070 01:41:16,090 --> 01:41:11,810 under rigid test conditions that they 2071 01:41:18,280 --> 01:41:16,100 would impose effect for men comprise the 2072 01:41:20,709 --> 01:41:18,290 challengers an audience at the circle 2073 01:41:22,899 --> 01:41:20,719 about the room mr. st. was seated in her 2074 01:41:24,939 --> 01:41:22,909 chair at one end of the circle of the 2075 01:41:27,520 --> 01:41:24,949 challengers a Southern Saints right knee 2076 01:41:30,550 --> 01:41:27,530 facing the audience and with one foot on 2077 01:41:33,160 --> 01:41:30,560 Saints right foot be sat in a similar 2078 01:41:34,780 --> 01:41:33,170 position on Saints left knee she stood 2079 01:41:36,910 --> 01:41:34,790 to the right of st. and slightly back of 2080 01:41:38,410 --> 01:41:36,920 him see with both hands holding Saints 2081 01:41:41,080 --> 01:41:38,420 extended right arm and hand 2082 01:41:44,020 --> 01:41:41,090 Dean likewise stood and held Saints left 2083 01:41:44,950 --> 01:41:44,030 arm and and this seemingly under 2084 01:41:47,080 --> 01:41:44,960 complete control 2085 01:41:49,780 --> 01:41:47,090 what could the medium produce in the way 2086 01:41:51,340 --> 01:41:49,790 of spirit manifestations the audience 2087 01:41:53,709 --> 01:41:51,350 had not been informed what might occur 2088 01:41:55,600 --> 01:41:53,719 but they as well as the challengers were 2089 01:41:58,060 --> 01:41:55,610 in an expectant mood when all the lights 2090 01:42:01,600 --> 01:41:58,070 were turned off by agreement a rug 2091 01:42:03,430 --> 01:42:01,610 covered the floor faint flashes of light 2092 01:42:05,189 --> 01:42:03,440 appeared a distant corner the distant 2093 01:42:07,060 --> 01:42:05,199 corner of the room then vanished 2094 01:42:08,950 --> 01:42:07,070 successive flashes occurred in other 2095 01:42:11,410 --> 01:42:08,960 parts of the room some high in the air 2096 01:42:15,399 --> 01:42:11,420 some low down the lights flitted about 2097 01:42:17,520 --> 01:42:15,409 gradually growing green a bit longer 2098 01:42:19,689 --> 01:42:17,530 sometimes a series of momentary flashes 2099 01:42:20,050 --> 01:42:19,699 spectators felt definite spirit touches 2100 01:42:22,990 --> 01:42:20,060 from the 2101 01:42:25,420 --> 01:42:23,000 fingers unseen hands ejaculation so the 2102 01:42:27,130 --> 01:42:25,430 spectators were ample proof that what 2103 01:42:28,960 --> 01:42:27,140 had been they'd been seeing things a 2104 01:42:30,040 --> 01:42:28,970 fact which was freely acknowledged and 2105 01:42:33,190 --> 01:42:30,050 reaffirmed when the lights were turned 2106 01:42:33,670 --> 01:42:33,200 on and they're set mr. Saint calm and on 2107 01:42:35,260 --> 01:42:33,680 chalant 2108 01:42:37,720 --> 01:42:35,270 under the weight of a and B with his 2109 01:42:39,880 --> 01:42:37,730 arms and hands still firmly held by C 2110 01:42:41,650 --> 01:42:39,890 and D he could not move under such 2111 01:42:43,720 --> 01:42:41,660 restraint it is the fact that he the 2112 01:42:45,730 --> 01:42:43,730 four challengers did not once release 2113 01:42:47,340 --> 01:42:45,740 their control for even a moment from 2114 01:42:51,460 --> 01:42:47,350 start to finish 2115 01:42:53,470 --> 01:42:51,470 paraphernalia one one luminous locator 2116 01:42:56,800 --> 01:42:53,480 button such as sole for attachment to 2117 01:43:01,110 --> 01:42:56,810 electric light pole cords etc to five or 2118 01:43:03,490 --> 01:43:01,120 six lead pellets or BB shot to perform 2119 01:43:05,440 --> 01:43:03,500 the mechanical part of the secret is 2120 01:43:07,510 --> 01:43:05,450 apparent from a paraphernalia mentioned 2121 01:43:09,760 --> 01:43:07,520 but the showmanship and patter are 2122 01:43:11,950 --> 01:43:09,770 responsible for the seemingly room wide 2123 01:43:13,600 --> 01:43:11,960 travel civil lights at a certain 2124 01:43:15,430 --> 01:43:13,610 amazement on the part of the challengers 2125 01:43:17,560 --> 01:43:15,440 who never saw any of the lights at any 2126 01:43:20,500 --> 01:43:17,570 time despite the fact that everybody 2127 01:43:21,190 --> 01:43:20,510 else saw them just before the time set 2128 01:43:24,340 --> 01:43:21,200 for the seance 2129 01:43:25,750 --> 01:43:24,350 mr. st. exposed his luminous button to 2130 01:43:27,880 --> 01:43:25,760 brilliant light and placed it in his 2131 01:43:30,190 --> 01:43:27,890 mouth concealed from view when he talked 2132 01:43:32,890 --> 01:43:30,200 the BB shot Rossler concealed in the 2133 01:43:34,750 --> 01:43:32,900 mouth he sought her that aim B face the 2134 01:43:36,610 --> 01:43:34,760 audience as they sat upon his knees and 2135 01:43:40,060 --> 01:43:36,620 that C and D were a little back of him 2136 01:43:41,620 --> 01:43:40,070 as they held his arms so as to not what 2137 01:43:43,240 --> 01:43:41,630 not to obstruct the view of the audience 2138 01:43:47,050 --> 01:43:43,250 anyway any more than absolutely 2139 01:43:49,450 --> 01:43:47,060 necessary thus a B C and D at no time 2140 01:43:51,070 --> 01:43:49,460 proceeded the Saints mouth since the 2141 01:43:53,200 --> 01:43:51,080 luminous button remained in Saints mouth 2142 01:43:54,910 --> 01:43:53,210 of all the time it explains the 2143 01:43:56,890 --> 01:43:54,920 inability of the challengers to see the 2144 01:43:58,300 --> 01:43:56,900 manifestations they would have 2145 01:43:59,860 --> 01:43:58,310 discovered the secret if they had been 2146 01:44:02,230 --> 01:43:59,870 able to get a glimpse when the light was 2147 01:44:05,020 --> 01:44:02,240 made to appear by the mere opening of 2148 01:44:06,520 --> 01:44:05,030 the mouth mr saye spatter during the 2149 01:44:08,380 --> 01:44:06,530 seance was designed to create the 2150 01:44:10,060 --> 01:44:08,390 impression the lights were in all parts 2151 01:44:11,950 --> 01:44:10,070 of the room especially points far 2152 01:44:13,870 --> 01:44:11,960 distant from him such was his 2153 01:44:17,140 --> 01:44:13,880 showmanship but the spectators 2154 01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:17,150 afterwards swore that they saw lights 2155 01:44:21,220 --> 01:44:19,010 all over the room where is the only 2156 01:44:23,530 --> 01:44:21,230 light ever visible was the tiny luminous 2157 01:44:26,440 --> 01:44:23,540 ball but Mr Spang Saints mouth and it of 2158 01:44:29,200 --> 01:44:26,450 course appeared only that one spot his 2159 01:44:31,240 --> 01:44:29,210 cover man something yo I'm losing my 2160 01:44:33,070 --> 01:44:31,250 good-natured miss I'm sorry okay that's 2161 01:44:33,940 --> 01:44:33,080 a point well taken though that either I 2162 01:44:36,670 --> 01:44:33,950 get which 2163 01:44:38,160 --> 01:44:36,680 get what you're going up but I guess and 2164 01:44:42,730 --> 01:44:38,170 we also have a caller 2165 01:44:44,200 --> 01:44:42,740 I love callers but we I understand where 2166 01:44:47,230 --> 01:44:44,210 you're going with it it's just that it 2167 01:44:47,770 --> 01:44:47,240 was taking what I consider a little bit 2168 01:44:49,570 --> 01:44:47,780 too long 2169 01:44:52,300 --> 01:44:49,580 but now yeah and that's even the 2170 01:44:54,820 --> 01:44:52,310 shortest short description anyway yeah 2171 01:44:57,970 --> 01:44:54,830 all right hey caller your first name 2172 01:44:58,780 --> 01:44:57,980 where you calling from this is Ryan from 2173 01:45:01,390 --> 01:44:58,790 South Carolina 2174 01:45:05,200 --> 01:45:01,400 oh yeah Ryan's a serial caller Ryan from 2175 01:45:05,470 --> 01:45:05,210 SC yeah - right hey pretty good pretty 2176 01:45:10,840 --> 01:45:05,480 good 2177 01:45:15,790 --> 01:45:10,850 a a skeptic reinforcement has arise 2178 01:45:18,490 --> 01:45:15,800 there okay and how much have you looked 2179 01:45:22,030 --> 01:45:18,500 into this case Ryan to become an 2180 01:45:24,580 --> 01:45:22,040 official skeptic on it I have to admit 2181 01:45:26,980 --> 01:45:24,590 I've probably read maybe one or two 2182 01:45:29,250 --> 01:45:26,990 books I believe I met Fred Friedman's 2183 01:45:32,320 --> 01:45:29,260 book on it 2184 01:45:37,270 --> 01:45:32,330 Cathy Martin n Stan Freeman co-wrote 2185 01:45:42,190 --> 01:45:37,280 that oh yeah yes and also seeing some 2186 01:45:43,960 --> 01:45:42,200 shows on it and this and that by the way 2187 01:45:47,410 --> 01:45:43,970 before I asked my question I would like 2188 01:45:49,120 --> 01:45:47,420 to I would like to follow up on a caller 2189 01:45:51,790 --> 01:45:49,130 before I believe it was Spiegel who 2190 01:45:54,790 --> 01:45:51,800 called back in he he said Robert friend 2191 01:45:56,830 --> 01:45:54,800 had said this in that but I was about 2192 01:45:58,420 --> 01:45:56,840 Blue Book you know Blue Book not being 2193 01:46:01,210 --> 01:45:58,430 adequate but I'd also like to point out 2194 01:46:03,880 --> 01:46:01,220 that Robertson also said that there was 2195 01:46:05,230 --> 01:46:03,890 no cover-up anywhere that he saw he said 2196 01:46:07,330 --> 01:46:05,240 if there was one they were very 2197 01:46:13,510 --> 01:46:07,340 successful in keeping it from him I'd 2198 01:46:16,090 --> 01:46:13,520 like to say that my question that's out 2199 01:46:18,700 --> 01:46:16,100 there yeah Jim will like the question I 2200 01:46:21,220 --> 01:46:18,710 just throw out there for debate is you 2201 01:46:23,290 --> 01:46:21,230 know these abductions 2202 01:46:26,320 --> 01:46:23,300 I mean they've gone on for years and 2203 01:46:28,210 --> 01:46:26,330 years and years and I'm not putting down 2204 01:46:31,720 --> 01:46:28,220 on anyone saying anyone's lying but 2205 01:46:34,330 --> 01:46:31,730 there's never any hard physical evidence 2206 01:46:37,630 --> 01:46:34,340 of it I mean to give you an example I 2207 01:46:41,860 --> 01:46:37,640 cannot you cannot walk into a room and 2208 01:46:46,120 --> 01:46:41,870 not leave some sort of sample of skin 2209 01:46:47,650 --> 01:46:46,130 hair in my case dandruff you know and it 2210 01:46:49,510 --> 01:46:47,660 not leaves something behind 2211 01:46:51,490 --> 01:46:49,520 these these things they've been 2212 01:46:53,650 --> 01:46:51,500 kidnapping people for years they never 2213 01:46:57,280 --> 01:46:53,660 come back with anything doesn't that 2214 01:46:59,470 --> 01:46:57,290 strike anyone is just a little I don't 2215 01:47:01,000 --> 01:46:59,480 want say impossible but very unlikely 2216 01:47:03,520 --> 01:47:01,010 well that's that's the theory of 2217 01:47:06,010 --> 01:47:03,530 transfer and it's a very well-known in 2218 01:47:07,540 --> 01:47:06,020 criminal investigations that you enter a 2219 01:47:10,840 --> 01:47:07,550 room whether you're breaking into a 2220 01:47:11,380 --> 01:47:10,850 house whether you're gonna commit a 2221 01:47:13,180 --> 01:47:11,390 homicide 2222 01:47:14,740 --> 01:47:13,190 whatever type of crime you're gonna do 2223 01:47:16,480 --> 01:47:14,750 you're gonna leave a trace whether 2224 01:47:18,580 --> 01:47:16,490 that's DNA whether it's blood whether 2225 01:47:20,310 --> 01:47:18,590 it's as you mentioned hair fiber all of 2226 01:47:22,840 --> 01:47:20,320 these different things and that was my 2227 01:47:24,100 --> 01:47:22,850 focus back on the dress and I was quite 2228 01:47:26,740 --> 01:47:24,110 interested in the dress and I don't 2229 01:47:29,170 --> 01:47:26,750 think the dress was was quite conclusive 2230 01:47:32,770 --> 01:47:29,180 in any in any form I'm not I'm certainly 2231 01:47:34,720 --> 01:47:32,780 not convinced but getting back to the 2232 01:47:37,320 --> 01:47:34,730 transferor theory are you saying that 2233 01:47:40,390 --> 01:47:37,330 these people leaving something behind in 2234 01:47:42,130 --> 01:47:40,400 what is supposed to be the craft or they 2235 01:47:45,340 --> 01:47:42,140 are taking something from the craft 2236 01:47:47,440 --> 01:47:45,350 along with them maybe on on on the soles 2237 01:47:49,720 --> 01:47:47,450 of their shoes maybe under their 2238 01:47:51,940 --> 01:47:49,730 fingernails something of that nature is 2239 01:47:53,260 --> 01:47:51,950 that is that what you're getting at yeah 2240 01:47:54,760 --> 01:47:53,270 I mean these these people they never 2241 01:47:56,350 --> 01:47:54,770 come back with anything you know like I 2242 01:47:58,540 --> 01:47:56,360 mean I know the aliens are supposedly 2243 01:48:01,060 --> 01:47:58,550 hairless I know that but conveniently 2244 01:48:03,400 --> 01:48:01,070 enough I mean those skin no blood no 2245 01:48:05,830 --> 01:48:03,410 nothing I mean just then every I mean I 2246 01:48:08,350 --> 01:48:05,840 wish they'd Lien's would would kidnap a 2247 01:48:10,750 --> 01:48:08,360 kleptomaniac so the guy would pickpocket 2248 01:48:12,550 --> 01:48:10,760 something off a dashboard or something 2249 01:48:15,490 --> 01:48:12,560 then come back with something but just I 2250 01:48:17,170 --> 01:48:15,500 mean this many kidnappings I you would 2251 01:48:18,820 --> 01:48:17,180 think there would be something at this 2252 01:48:21,880 --> 01:48:18,830 point I think the problem that you run 2253 01:48:25,870 --> 01:48:21,890 up against and having served a pier at a 2254 01:48:29,050 --> 01:48:25,880 time in it's probably very unpleasant to 2255 01:48:30,490 --> 01:48:29,060 discuss but sexual crimes is that a lot 2256 01:48:33,460 --> 01:48:30,500 of times the victims will wait before 2257 01:48:35,110 --> 01:48:33,470 they they make a report and many times I 2258 01:48:37,450 --> 01:48:35,120 couldn't tell you how many times the 2259 01:48:39,280 --> 01:48:37,460 victim will take a shower because they 2260 01:48:41,440 --> 01:48:39,290 feel dirty the victim will clean up the 2261 01:48:43,480 --> 01:48:41,450 victim will wash their clothes all these 2262 01:48:44,860 --> 01:48:43,490 different things tend to happen these 2263 01:48:47,050 --> 01:48:44,870 sort of things and I would imagine that 2264 01:48:49,570 --> 01:48:47,060 really would happen in these situations 2265 01:48:51,460 --> 01:48:49,580 as well because they are similar nature 2266 01:48:54,370 --> 01:48:51,470 well I would like to I'd like to pose 2267 01:48:58,140 --> 01:48:54,380 this question has and if anyone out 2268 01:49:00,870 --> 01:48:58,150 there knows has anyone ever forensic ly 2269 01:49:02,160 --> 01:49:00,880 investigated a scene 2270 01:49:04,470 --> 01:49:02,170 where someone said that they were 2271 01:49:07,350 --> 01:49:04,480 abducted I don't I don't think that's 2272 01:49:09,810 --> 01:49:07,360 taken place that I know of I'm not aware 2273 01:49:12,810 --> 01:49:09,820 of any case like that yeah so that's a 2274 01:49:15,090 --> 01:49:12,820 question for a move on yeah well you 2275 01:49:17,729 --> 01:49:15,100 know they these people have come back 2276 01:49:19,709 --> 01:49:17,739 with they claim they're track with 2277 01:49:21,320 --> 01:49:19,719 before they claim they're tracked by sub 2278 01:49:23,370 --> 01:49:21,330 contain iasts 2279 01:49:25,740 --> 01:49:23,380 locators I don't know what you call them 2280 01:49:28,620 --> 01:49:25,750 humming beacons or whatever they they've 2281 01:49:29,939 --> 01:49:28,630 extracted them they haven't ya found 2282 01:49:32,040 --> 01:49:29,949 anything that proves our 2283 01:49:33,750 --> 01:49:32,050 extraterrestrial nature before through 2284 01:49:37,470 --> 01:49:33,760 chemical analysis and a spectrograph 2285 01:49:39,200 --> 01:49:37,480 analysis so you know again it comes up 2286 01:49:42,390 --> 01:49:39,210 it comes up with a dead end 2287 01:49:45,149 --> 01:49:42,400 actually I think that there are have 2288 01:49:46,830 --> 01:49:45,159 been several these foreign objects 2289 01:49:49,290 --> 01:49:46,840 recovered from within under people's 2290 01:49:50,910 --> 01:49:49,300 skin within their bodies and some of 2291 01:49:54,890 --> 01:49:50,920 them are rather unusual but that's not 2292 01:49:57,270 --> 01:49:54,900 to say that they're yeah call of a foul 2293 01:49:58,470 --> 01:49:57,280 call we have someone else calling in 2294 01:49:59,939 --> 01:49:58,480 it's getting near the end of the show I 2295 01:50:03,060 --> 01:49:59,949 hope you don't mind but I'd like to take 2296 01:50:05,129 --> 01:50:03,070 them if I could okay all right thanks 2297 01:50:09,620 --> 01:50:05,139 for calling in all right thank you 2298 01:50:14,390 --> 01:50:09,630 all right now my mouse is not letting me 2299 01:50:16,110 --> 01:50:14,400 yeah all right so caller can you hear me 2300 01:50:18,030 --> 01:50:16,120 yes thank you 2301 01:50:20,669 --> 01:50:18,040 yeah welcome to the show and your first 2302 01:50:24,689 --> 01:50:20,679 name where you calling from my name is 2303 01:50:27,149 --> 01:50:24,699 Thomas Berg from Pittsburgh yeah how you 2304 01:50:31,050 --> 01:50:27,159 guys all right welcome Tom you have a 2305 01:50:32,970 --> 01:50:31,060 question for our guest yeah um I wish 2306 01:50:36,390 --> 01:50:32,980 Kathy would actually brought this up in 2307 01:50:39,300 --> 01:50:36,400 the case the next morning when Betty 2308 01:50:40,919 --> 01:50:39,310 Hill was home she talked about the 2309 01:50:44,040 --> 01:50:40,929 incident to a neighbor who was a 2310 01:50:47,129 --> 01:50:44,050 physicist and he actually went to the 2311 01:50:50,250 --> 01:50:47,139 car and was looking at the strange 2312 01:50:52,530 --> 01:50:50,260 markings around are the half-dollar 2313 01:50:54,540 --> 01:50:52,540 markings are on the car and he actually 2314 01:50:56,340 --> 01:50:54,550 could I get neither and was tech 2315 01:50:58,470 --> 01:50:56,350 radiation levels and the levels were 2316 01:51:01,680 --> 01:50:58,480 higher than normal and the car was also 2317 01:51:04,649 --> 01:51:01,690 magnetized so I kind of like to see how 2318 01:51:08,280 --> 01:51:04,659 Jim can say how would something like 2319 01:51:11,040 --> 01:51:08,290 that happens and and also for your last 2320 01:51:13,800 --> 01:51:11,050 caller talking about abductions and how 2321 01:51:14,340 --> 01:51:13,810 there's really no kind of research 2322 01:51:15,800 --> 01:51:14,350 there's a 2323 01:51:19,350 --> 01:51:15,810 gentlemen you had our name Derrel Sims 2324 01:51:21,270 --> 01:51:19,360 who's done actually a lot of work people 2325 01:51:23,520 --> 01:51:21,280 who have been abducted a lot of their 2326 01:51:27,260 --> 01:51:23,530 cases and he's actually has found 2327 01:51:29,520 --> 01:51:27,270 fingerprints would mark person's body 2328 01:51:31,290 --> 01:51:29,530 objects that were in the body as well 2329 01:51:33,510 --> 01:51:31,300 and also the people describing how when 2330 01:51:35,220 --> 01:51:33,520 they walk in this morning how their 2331 01:51:36,660 --> 01:51:35,230 clothes were on or the clothes weren't 2332 01:51:39,090 --> 01:51:36,670 on right or they were wearing somebody 2333 01:51:41,310 --> 01:51:39,100 else's clothes so I'll kind of leave it 2334 01:51:42,810 --> 01:51:41,320 at right it's all kinda leave it at that 2335 01:51:44,130 --> 01:51:42,820 have you guys discussed it but hey thank 2336 01:51:47,550 --> 01:51:44,140 you guys very much you guys have a great 2337 01:51:48,630 --> 01:51:47,560 night thank you thank you Tom this is 2338 01:51:50,430 --> 01:51:48,640 the first I've heard about a Geiger 2339 01:51:53,490 --> 01:51:50,440 counter being used on Betty in Bernie's 2340 01:51:55,920 --> 01:51:53,500 car though story I had heard or had read 2341 01:51:57,870 --> 01:51:55,930 was that they used a magnetic compass to 2342 01:51:58,980 --> 01:51:57,880 find radiation which just isn't gonna 2343 01:52:00,600 --> 01:51:58,990 work 2344 01:52:04,500 --> 01:52:00,610 magnetic compass will detect that there 2345 01:52:06,420 --> 01:52:04,510 is in fact a big iron car there okay we 2346 01:52:08,460 --> 01:52:06,430 don't know how long these markings had 2347 01:52:10,710 --> 01:52:08,470 been on the car gonna destroy their 2348 01:52:12,120 --> 01:52:10,720 magician's code again here we go you 2349 01:52:14,970 --> 01:52:12,130 know how to do the card through window 2350 01:52:17,130 --> 01:52:14,980 you go out and you paste the card on the 2351 01:52:20,160 --> 01:52:17,140 outside of a window sometime before the 2352 01:52:23,010 --> 01:52:20,170 show then during the course of the show 2353 01:52:24,480 --> 01:52:23,020 you force a duplicate of that same card 2354 01:52:26,310 --> 01:52:24,490 you throw the deck of cards to the 2355 01:52:27,420 --> 01:52:26,320 window and by golly there's a card 2356 01:52:29,100 --> 01:52:27,430 outside the window it's on the other 2357 01:52:32,730 --> 01:52:29,110 side of the glass how could he possibly 2358 01:52:34,680 --> 01:52:32,740 have done that well you're giving away 2359 01:52:36,300 --> 01:52:34,690 all the secrets yeah yeah give it a 2360 01:52:37,950 --> 01:52:36,310 little way away the shop here I'm gonna 2361 01:52:39,750 --> 01:52:37,960 take over your job tomorrow we have 2362 01:52:45,000 --> 01:52:39,760 someone else calling in hang on just a 2363 01:52:46,740 --> 01:52:45,010 second hello caller welcome to the show 2364 01:52:51,210 --> 01:52:46,750 your name and where you call it from 2365 01:52:55,200 --> 01:52:51,220 first name ray from Maryland oh hey ray 2366 01:52:56,970 --> 01:52:55,210 how are you great we only have about 6 2367 01:52:59,880 --> 01:52:56,980 minutes left so just keep that in mind 2368 01:53:00,890 --> 01:52:59,890 okay let me put it in about three okay 2369 01:53:05,280 --> 01:53:00,900 sir 2370 01:53:08,100 --> 01:53:05,290 okay here's what I like to say I have 2371 01:53:10,920 --> 01:53:08,110 been somewhat skeptical of the Betty 2372 01:53:12,390 --> 01:53:10,930 Botta Hill case for some time and I've 2373 01:53:14,310 --> 01:53:12,400 never made up my mind whether it's real 2374 01:53:16,710 --> 01:53:14,320 or not and neither one of the neither 2375 01:53:19,140 --> 01:53:16,720 the opponent of proponent tinnitus has 2376 01:53:22,140 --> 01:53:19,150 convinced me one way or another I would 2377 01:53:24,090 --> 01:53:22,150 mention first that that it seems there's 2378 01:53:27,840 --> 01:53:24,100 been a presentation an idea tonight that 2379 01:53:30,470 --> 01:53:27,850 the Budd Hopkins Grey's so-called 2380 01:53:33,240 --> 01:53:30,480 were the things that were described in 2381 01:53:35,430 --> 01:53:33,250 in the Betty and Barney Hill case under 2382 01:53:37,710 --> 01:53:35,440 hypnosis and that is not correct the 2383 01:53:38,820 --> 01:53:37,720 eyes the the head size and relationship 2384 01:53:40,620 --> 01:53:38,830 with the body a lot of other things are 2385 01:53:42,480 --> 01:53:40,630 quite different if you go back to the 2386 01:53:44,550 --> 01:53:42,490 original transcriptions they're not what 2387 01:53:46,800 --> 01:53:44,560 was described and exaggerated and 2388 01:53:49,170 --> 01:53:46,810 distorted across time in Budd Hopkins 2389 01:53:51,330 --> 01:53:49,180 hypnotic cases and in others so that 2390 01:53:54,840 --> 01:53:51,340 makes me skeptical at least about 2391 01:53:59,660 --> 01:53:54,850 Hopkins type of cases I'm skeptical a 2392 01:54:02,310 --> 01:53:59,670 lot of but I want to say this in 1956 I 2393 01:54:04,050 --> 01:54:02,320 had had a UFO experience which was 2394 01:54:06,360 --> 01:54:04,060 published because there was a three 2395 01:54:09,060 --> 01:54:06,370 police officers involved in it and a 2396 01:54:14,310 --> 01:54:09,070 gentleman contacted me from San Antonio 2397 01:54:14,910 --> 01:54:14,320 Texas he was he was in his mid to late 2398 01:54:17,610 --> 01:54:14,920 20s 2399 01:54:21,390 --> 01:54:17,620 his father was a medical I'm sorry was a 2400 01:54:22,620 --> 01:54:21,400 retired Air Force general and we had 2401 01:54:24,270 --> 01:54:22,630 talked about this and he asked my 2402 01:54:26,250 --> 01:54:24,280 opinion well I was naive then and I 2403 01:54:27,660 --> 01:54:26,260 believe the hoaxes of George Adamski not 2404 01:54:29,700 --> 01:54:27,670 say well they're probably friendly space 2405 01:54:32,070 --> 01:54:29,710 brothers from other planets well of 2406 01:54:34,200 --> 01:54:32,080 course they weren't but he called me up 2407 01:54:37,290 --> 01:54:34,210 one day and he said listen ray he said 2408 01:54:39,090 --> 01:54:37,300 this this stuff is ridiculous he's I'm 2409 01:54:42,840 --> 01:54:39,100 concerned with something happened he was 2410 01:54:45,030 --> 01:54:42,850 out in New Mexico on a family reunion 2411 01:54:46,320 --> 01:54:45,040 thing and driving out on a highway he 2412 01:54:48,270 --> 01:54:46,330 wasn't totally familiar with the area 2413 01:54:50,970 --> 01:54:48,280 all of a sudden in broad daylight 2414 01:54:53,010 --> 01:54:50,980 there was a dome disc in front of his 2415 01:54:55,680 --> 01:54:53,020 car as he was moving he said I don't 2416 01:54:58,950 --> 01:54:55,690 know I don't know how it got there but 2417 01:55:02,760 --> 01:54:58,960 all of a sudden he said it was about two 2418 01:55:04,800 --> 01:55:02,770 hours later and he was on the side of a 2419 01:55:06,810 --> 01:55:04,810 road at an unknown place it took him a 2420 01:55:08,700 --> 01:55:06,820 long time of driving to find somebody to 2421 01:55:10,770 --> 01:55:08,710 tell him where he was how he could get 2422 01:55:12,330 --> 01:55:10,780 back to where he had intended to go but 2423 01:55:14,310 --> 01:55:12,340 the interesting point is he was driving 2424 01:55:16,280 --> 01:55:14,320 one of those Beaver little mg sports 2425 01:55:19,380 --> 01:55:16,290 cars with a beautifully curved back 2426 01:55:21,060 --> 01:55:19,390 downward fender he said ray if you think 2427 01:55:23,160 --> 01:55:21,070 this is something in my imagination he 2428 01:55:25,200 --> 01:55:23,170 didn't talk about abduction or aliens he 2429 01:55:26,970 --> 01:55:25,210 said I want you to come to San Antonio 2430 01:55:30,210 --> 01:55:26,980 and look at what happened to my car I 2431 01:55:32,550 --> 01:55:30,220 went there and the fender was had been 2432 01:55:34,230 --> 01:55:32,560 he said it had been dropped down that 2433 01:55:35,820 --> 01:55:34,240 there was a sensation of dropping he 2434 01:55:38,010 --> 01:55:35,830 woke up and it was dropped on the road 2435 01:55:39,630 --> 01:55:38,020 and he was jarred and I looked under the 2436 01:55:41,520 --> 01:55:39,640 fender there was a big bump in this 2437 01:55:43,650 --> 01:55:41,530 beautiful fender sticking up straight 2438 01:55:45,000 --> 01:55:43,660 as I stood beside the car and I crawled 2439 01:55:47,190 --> 01:55:45,010 under the car and looked and you could 2440 01:55:49,980 --> 01:55:47,200 see we're obviously a rock the shape of 2441 01:55:51,630 --> 01:55:49,990 a rocket had just smashed in the middle 2442 01:55:52,980 --> 01:55:51,640 there and cut the actual metal 2443 01:55:55,950 --> 01:55:52,990 underneath the bottom through the rust 2444 01:55:58,320 --> 01:55:55,960 and everything so this suggests to me 2445 01:56:00,810 --> 01:55:58,330 that something happened that we might 2446 01:56:03,690 --> 01:56:00,820 think was an alien abduction way back in 2447 01:56:08,250 --> 01:56:03,700 the summer of 1956 and I'll close off 2448 01:56:14,670 --> 01:56:08,260 with that account oh okay great thank 2449 01:56:16,410 --> 01:56:14,680 you okay get to back to Betty and Bernie 2450 01:56:19,590 --> 01:56:16,420 they're driving south on Route three 2451 01:56:22,290 --> 01:56:19,600 it's late at night they see the moon and 2452 01:56:24,570 --> 01:56:22,300 they see Saturn they see Jupiter they go 2453 01:56:27,360 --> 01:56:24,580 up the side of corrigan Hill up to Mount 2454 01:56:28,890 --> 01:56:27,370 Prospect they lose sight of the moon 2455 01:56:30,600 --> 01:56:28,900 they lose sight of Jupiter they lose 2456 01:56:33,000 --> 01:56:30,610 sight of Saturn because it's a pretty 2457 01:56:35,340 --> 01:56:33,010 darn steep hill they cross over the 2458 01:56:39,030 --> 01:56:35,350 crest now they see the moon Jupiter and 2459 01:56:43,170 --> 01:56:39,040 Saturn again down to the south-southwest 2460 01:56:45,270 --> 01:56:43,180 and there's a third light by weird 2461 01:56:47,160 --> 01:56:45,280 coincidence that's the exact same point 2462 01:56:49,980 --> 01:56:47,170 where you can see the Cannon Mountain 2463 01:56:52,860 --> 01:56:49,990 light immediately after crossing over 2464 01:56:58,350 --> 01:56:52,870 that crest the road goes down for half a 2465 01:56:59,730 --> 01:56:58,360 mile and 9% downward grade one or the 2466 01:57:02,670 --> 01:56:59,740 other of the hills described that their 2467 01:57:05,700 --> 01:57:02,680 object as like a shooting star that went 2468 01:57:08,610 --> 01:57:05,710 up I can tell you that when you go down 2469 01:57:11,970 --> 01:57:08,620 that grade the Latin cannon appears to 2470 01:57:14,250 --> 01:57:11,980 go up as they approached Franconia Notch 2471 01:57:15,630 --> 01:57:14,260 the light appears to grow bigger and 2472 01:57:18,030 --> 01:57:15,640 closer and brighter 2473 01:57:21,960 --> 01:57:18,040 Chanin mountain light grows bigger and 2474 01:57:24,360 --> 01:57:21,970 closer and brighter we get down to the 2475 01:57:25,770 --> 01:57:24,370 tramway they look at the top there's a 2476 01:57:28,680 --> 01:57:25,780 snack bar at the top of the crime way 2477 01:57:33,570 --> 01:57:28,690 their UFO is above and to the left of 2478 01:57:35,730 --> 01:57:33,580 the of the snack shop and Betty says oh 2479 01:57:39,150 --> 01:57:35,740 if anybody's up there they must be 2480 01:57:40,560 --> 01:57:39,160 getting a spectacular view anybody else 2481 01:57:43,650 --> 01:57:40,570 would have seen that life on top of the 2482 01:57:46,050 --> 01:57:43,660 tramway and the lookout tower light they 2483 01:57:48,930 --> 01:57:46,060 continued south down three the light 2484 01:57:50,670 --> 01:57:48,940 goes up the right side of their car just 2485 01:57:53,700 --> 01:57:50,680 like the Cannon Mountain light they 2486 01:57:55,200 --> 01:57:53,710 continue south they pass by the 2487 01:57:59,450 --> 01:57:55,210 jack-o'-lantern Reese 2488 01:58:02,610 --> 01:57:59,460 with a big glowing orange orb on it 2489 01:58:04,410 --> 01:58:02,620 already we already was was a true 2490 01:58:07,500 --> 01:58:04,420 believer already her sister saw a UFO 2491 01:58:11,550 --> 01:58:07,510 back in 57 she wanted to see a UFO and 2492 01:58:14,510 --> 01:58:11,560 she did hey thank you so much Jim we are 2493 01:58:16,560 --> 01:58:14,520 out of time okay all right you take care 2494 01:58:19,170 --> 01:58:16,570 yeah you too see you around 2495 01:58:21,180 --> 01:58:19,180 all right yeah bye tikka Jim all right 2496 01:58:23,600 --> 01:58:21,190 everyone so that is it for the show 2497 01:58:27,990 --> 01:58:23,610 thank you so much for hanging in and 2498 01:58:30,560 --> 01:58:28,000 we'll be back next week with let's see 2499 01:58:34,350 --> 01:58:30,570 who we have we have need Nadine Lalit 2500 01:58:36,450 --> 01:58:34,360 she's going to be on interesting I've 2501 01:58:38,160 --> 01:58:36,460 had a couple requests from guests that 2502 01:58:40,830 --> 01:58:38,170 wanted me to have her on so she'll be on 2503 01:58:46,530 --> 01:58:40,840 so we'll be back I think next week is 2504 01:58:48,660 --> 01:58:46,540 our last live stream show on YouTube we 2505 01:58:51,000 --> 01:58:48,670 are actually going to look into see if 2506 01:58:53,010 --> 01:58:51,010 we can do both at the same time I don't 2507 01:58:54,690 --> 01:58:53,020 think I can with the guest on I mean I 2508 01:58:57,780 --> 01:58:54,700 could with me but who wants to see me 2509 01:58:59,760 --> 01:58:57,790 anyway but anyway thanks for joining me 2510 01:59:02,340 --> 01:58:59,770 Donny I appreciate it always a pleasure 2511 01:59:04,890 --> 01:59:02,350 all right and so that's it for the show 2512 01:59:05,730 --> 01:59:04,900 everyone remember to keep your eyes to 2513 01:59:11,060 --> 01:59:05,740 the sky